SE/30 networking question: How do I connect to OS X machines

[Dookie]

I've got an SE/30 with an ethernet card. I've got it set up with a proper IP address and now can get it on my network (and the internet). However, I'm stumped at trying to get either the SE/30 to see my Intel iMac or vice-versa. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

[ChristTrekker]

What do you mean "see"? Can the X box ping the SE/30's IP address? Does the X box have telnetd/sshd/ftpd running? If so, can you telnet/ssh/ftp in from the SE/30? Are you trying to get AppleTalk working between the two?

[porter]

MacSSH?

[Dookie]

Sorry, I was not clear. I want to file-share between the two computers, mostly be able to pull files from the iMac on the SE/30, but alternatively, if I could "push" files from the iMac onto the SE/30 that would work too.

[porter]

Netpresenz or ftpd would work on the SE/30.

Alternatively put A/UX on the SE/30.

[ChristTrekker]

Sorry, I was not clear. I want to file-share between the two computers, mostly be able to pull files from the iMac on the SE/30, but alternatively, if I could "push" files from the iMac onto the SE/30 that would work too.

IIRC, the versions of AppleTalk between System 7.x and OS X are too different and no longer compatible. So AT sharing is out. Both could share with an intermediate AT version, such as the one that came with OS 9 though.

Get an ftp/web client on the SE/30, enable the appropriate server on the iMac, and fetch files that way. I can't remember if there is another filesharing protocol supported under System 7 or not. Maybe with a 3rd party app...

[joshc]

This might help you:
http://main.system7today.com/articles/l ... index.html

[porter]

This might help you:
http://main.system7today.com/articles/l ... index.html

Note carefully, that uses System 7.6.

[joshc]

This might help you:
http://main.system7today.com/articles/l ... index.html

Note carefully, that uses System 7.6.

ShareWay IP Personal Edition runs on 7.5.5 and later, so it is possible to use it on at least one version prior to 7.6. Note carefully, the OP has not told us what version of System 7 he is using on his SE/30.

[JDW]

I'm stumped at trying to get either the SE/30 to see my Intel iMac or vice-versa.

Heeding the information presented in this post will completely unstump you:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5304&p=55379#p55379

[equill]

This is a subject that has exercised quite a few minds in this Army. A least-fuss solution can be found quickly if you have a Mac capable of running OS 7.6.1 to use as an intermediary between the older and new Macs.

de

[Dookie]

Thanks everyone. FWIW, I'm running 7.0 on the SE/30, but also have a 7.5 System on it that I can switch between (although the speed hit from 7.5 is pretty stiff). I do not have 7.6, but have 8, 8.5, and 9. Will an intermediate machine running 8 or 9 work in lieu of a 7.6 machine?

[joshc]

Thanks everyone. FWIW, I'm running 7.0 on the SE/30, but also have a 7.5 System on it that I can switch between (although the speed hit from 7.5 is pretty stiff). I do not have 7.6, but have 8, 8.5, and 9. Will an intermediate machine running 8 or 9 work in lieu of a 7.6 machine?

Yes. OS 8 with ShareWay IP Personal installed to enable TCP/IP file sharing for compatibility with OS X, or OS 9 on its own.

[Macflyer]

I was able to connect my SE/30 via Etherwave adapter (connected to the serial port) to the iBook running Panther via Appletalk. To be correct, I can conncet to SE/30´s volume (hard disk) in the Network folder as a guest and then I am able to access all files on the SE or to drag and drop files on its volume.

All this might not work on newer versions of Mac OS X, though.

Maybe running BasiliskII/Sheepshaver could help you connecting to the SE/30 using an older and more compatible version of Appletalk?

[JDW]

TI'm running 7.0 on the SE/30, but also have a 7.5 System... I do not have 7.6, but have 8, 8.5, and 9. Will an intermediate machine running 8 or 9 work in lieu of a 7.6 machine?

Apparently, no one took time to completely read through the information I posted above in this thread, otherwise you would be up and running now. Therefore, I will spell it out more clearly for you...

First of all, you said you have an SE/30. You therefore cannot use 7.6.1. or 8.1 at all unless you have a non-stock ROM (such as I do in my SE/30). But even with a IIfx or IIsi ROM, you cannot run anything higher than OS 8.1. My SE/30 with IIsi ROM has System 6.0.8, System 7.1, 7.5.5, 7.6.1 and 8.1 running (selectable via System Picker).

Next, you can use an intermediary OS 9 machine like I do, which is a G4 Cube. However, I prefer to connect to my Cube and other modern Macs when they are booted into OS X, which is the only thing you can do on an Intel Mac. And honestly, once you setup the OS X Mac and the SE/30 properly, you don't need an intermediary Mac and you will find that it is actually much less troublesome to NOT use one.

Now with this in mind...

1) I applied the TCPQuantum hack on my OS X machine, as follows:

1) System Preferences > Sharing > Stop "Personal File Sharing"
2) Launched Terminal
3) Pasted in this: sudo defaults write /Library/Preferences/com.apple.AppleFileServer TCPQuantum -int 327680
4) Saw that my "write" command was successful (as evidenced by no errors appearing in Terminal).
5) Re-enabled Personal File Sharing

(You can also use PlistEdit Pro to do this, or just use PlistEdit Pro to verify that "327680" was in fact written into that file via those Terminal commands.)

With this TCPQuantum hack in place on my OS 10.4.10 machine, I was pleasantly surprised to see that I could connect to my OS X Mac from the SE/30 (under OS 8.1) without ShareWay IP Personal running, and I was able to copy over many megabytes of data without any disconnects! I could take entire disk partitions on my SE/30, drag them over to my OS X machine's HD and the entire partition would be backed up -- something I couldn't do without disconnects before. So this TCPQuantum hack is outstanding indeed and a must for any SE/30 running OS 8.1 to connect reliably to a Tiger Mac (or higher).

This TCPQuantum change does not enable the OS X machine to initiate connections to the SE/30 . To do accomplish that, read on...

2) I took time to install Open Transport 1.3 under all my System 7 OS's on my SE/30 -- this is an important step!

3) I found that the AppleShare extension used in all my System 7.x System Folders was version 3.6.4. The existence of that older extension was resulting in an incompatible AFP error dialog on my SE/30, and is also why I could not display the "Server IP Address..." button in the Chooser. Updating that extension to version 3.7.4 (the same version of the extension as is used in any OS 8.1 System Folder) fixes both problems in System 7.x. The AFP error is now gone and I can see the "Server IP Address..." button in the Chooser. (By the way, the Chooser version I use on my SE/30 is 7.6.1.)

4) Under System 7.1, if I open the Chooser and then click AppleShare, I can connect to my OS 10.4 G4 Cube. But if I then drag my SE/30's 1.4GB hard disk partition over to my mounted Cube's shared hard drive icon, file copy will start but then will lock up less than 10 seconds later. (The manner of the lock-up is such that the current filename being copied, as shown in the Copy dialog, flickers on/off rapidly forever.) And this is after I did the TCPquantum hack to my Cube. I then unmounted my Cube's hard drive and restart into System 7.1 I opened the Chooser, this time clicking on the "Server IP Address..." button and typing in my G4 Cube's IP address manually. I can connect just like I did before. But I get the same lockup when I drag my SE/30's 1.4GB hard drive partition to my mounted Cube's drive. It locks up in less than 10 seconds.

5) I repeated the above two steps in System 7.5.5. Files copied over just fine via AFP. No lockups whatsoever. Works just like OS 8.1 if
AppleShare 3.7.4 is used.

6) I then repeated Step-1 and Step-2 above in 7.6.1. Files now copy over just fine via AFP. No lockups whatsoever. Works just like OS 8.1 if AppleShare 3.7.4 is used.

Conclusions:
1) System 7.1 won't allow reliable file copying from an SE/30 to an OS 10.4 machine, regardless of the AppleShare version used or if IP connections are used. It's clear that 7.5.5, 7.6.1 and OS 8.1 have something that 7.1 does in regards to networking. This is interesting because I installed OT 1.3 on System 7.1, and I updated AppleShare to 3.7.4. Even so, I get errors when writing to my OS 10.4 machine across the network. If someone can figure out a way to get 7.1 to copy from an SE/30 to an OS 10.4 Mac, due tell!
2) Reliable file copies to an OS 10.4 machine can be done running System 7.5.5 or System 7.6.1 or OS 8.1 along side OT 1.3 and AppleShare 3.7.4 on an SE/30. You do not need any intermediary Mac to accomplish this.

[trag]

Wow, JDW, thank you for the helpful and detailed post. I'm not to the point where I need to use it, but it sure is nice to know it is here.

Actually, I'm quite the OS X ignoramus. I'm still having trouble getting my 9.1 machines to connect nicely to my Tiger machines. (The other direction is fine, mounting 9.1 shared volumes on the Tiger machine) All I get is a silly drop box. I have Pogue's, "The Missing Manual" but need to actually devote the time to reading the relevant material.

[Mac128]

If you are using an intermediate Mac, this method seems to offer the easiest route to sharing a disk. It also allows to use whatever version OS you want on the SE/30.

[equill]

Good stuff, JDW. I haven't yet tried to extend the process back a small notch from IIci/50MHz to SE/30, but I am sitting here with the root-level folder of my G4/1GHz DP displayed on a IIci. The IIci is using OS 7.6.1, Chooser 7.5.5, OT 1.1.2 and AppleShare 3.8.3. The IIci is a little slower than the G4 at calculating the G4's folder sizes, but the figure produced is accurate. The AppleShare version is that of choice when a IIci has been upgraded with any of the 40MHz family of '040-upgrade cards (MicroMac and Mobius for sure, and the DayStar doesn't mind at all), and does no harm to an '030 in a PowerCache card.

Was your copy of OT 1.3 bought, or chiselled out of a later OS than 7.6.1? When Time, the universal oppressor, will consent to lend me some part of its riches, I intend, if possible, to get 7.6.1 onto one of my SE/30s. There need be no problem arising from RAM availability in either a IIci or an SE/30, and the following offers some hope that the SE/30 will behave NuBussishly enough for the purpose:

The PDS in the SE/30 is a 120-pin, 32-bit PDS which provides both "common" and "machine-specific" signals. The common signals will be available across all 68030 PDS implementations, while the machine-specific signals will be available on future 68030 PDS implementations and may have new features added. On the SE/30, the machine-specific signals emulate equivalent signals on the NuBus expansion interface. This emulation means that expansion cards on the SE/30 may take advantage of the Slot Manager in ROM to communicate with the bus via a Declaration ROM on the card.

de

[JDW]

OT 1.3 came with OS 8.1. Here's a nice article about that:
http://db.tidbits.com/article/4666

Some of you may have heard about OT 1.3.1, but you don't need that minor update to get networking to function properly, as I have outlined in my previous post in this thread. But if you want details on it, have a look here:
http://support.apple.com/kb/TA38461?viewlocale=en_US

And for those of you who are not satsified without knowing every last detail on the subject, here is the complete "book" on OT, which includes version 1.3:
http://developer.apple.com/documentatio ... kingOT.pdf

I have a set of four 1.4MB floppy disk installers for OT 1.3 (68k version). I think those may have been courtesy of Retromac -- I have forgotten.

Equill, I forgot your email address or OT1.3 would be sitting in your emailbox right now. Please simply PM me or send me an email (if you still have my address) and I will fire it off to you. Ditto for anyone else interested (those of you who don't have OS 8.1, anyway).

[equill]

Thank you for your kind offer, JDW, but it was enough that you fingered OS 8.1 as the resting-place for OT 1.3. I have the CD Z-97050-315-A, which contains OT 1.3.1. Only my PBs 520c and 540c have OS 8.1 installed, and that had slipped my capacious sieve-like memory for the moment. I shall disinter them tomorrow, from whichever carton they came in late March to my present (new) address, and remake the acquaintance with their vv. of OT. As for my email address, I shall PM you separately.

Thank you also for the link to Inside Macintosh's OT volume, one that had hitherto escaped my eye. I see that its year of most-recent update is a few years later than most others of the series.

de

[superpantoufle]

All of this, for some reason I can't figure, does not work on french Systems. I tried for years, with every possible combinations of OpenTransport, AppleShare and Chooser, to no avail. Since I read in several places, including this very thread, that it was indeed possible, I assume there is an issue with localised (or at least french) Systems.

Now today I wanted to be sure, after reading you guys. So I installed Mac OS 8.1 US on one of my PowerBook. And it worked just fine. Incredible, believe it or not, but it was the first time I was actually able to share files via AppleShare from a 68k Mac to my Leopard MacBook Pro. With all my other machines, for the several past years, on different flavors of System 7.x to 8.x, the Chooser always crashed with a -1 error just after clicking the Connect button. Works as expected from OS 9.x to 10.x, though.
Sorry, this is slightly off-topic since I bring my own problems in. But I thought it could be an interesting question!

[porter]

My understanding is that leopard no longer supports AppleTalk at all. So it's all AppleShare over IP.

[JDW]

Although my earlier post mentions this clearly, I wish to again emphasize the fact that you are not forced to use OS 8.1 to accomplish networking between an old 68k Mac and your modern OS X Mac. You can use System 7.5.5. You simply need to replace some networking components of System 7.5.5 with newer versions as described in my other post in this thread. And those newer versions happen to come with OS 8.1.

Why do I say this? Because some among us have SE/30's without any IIfx or IIsi ROM. That means those folks can only run up to System 7.5.5. Without the IIfx or IIsi ROM you will not be able to install OS 8.1 in the normal way to conveniently access the required files, but perhaps TomeViewer would work on the OS 8.1 installer? (I've not tried it.) Even so, I do have copies of the individual files myself, as I am sure other members here do.

[JDW]

I was reading through this Macintouch report today and spotted some interesting info about how Netatalk could be used on Snow Leopard Macs to solve AppleTalk printing and fileserving problems. My older post in this thread talks about how to connect to vintage Macs using OS 10.4.x. But of course, most of us use 10.6 now, which breaks the OS X filesharing solution I posted before due to the lack of a compatible AppleTalk protocol (in OS 10.6) for those older Macs. But it would appear that Netatalk brings back that compatibility by restoring the needed protocol under 10.6! I certainly will be giving Netatalk a try when I find some free time, but for now I am quite curious -- have any of you been able to network with old System 7 Macs via Netatalk? (I am talking about "file sharing," not printing.)

[Gorgonops]

I certainly will be giving Netatalk a try when I find some free time, but for now I am quite curious -- have any of you been able to network with old System 7 Macs via Netatalk? (I am talking about "file sharing," not printing.)

Netatalk works as advertised and is a complete no-brainer on a Linux server. The latest versions even support Time Machine. It's stable, simple to set up (by UNIX daemon standards) and I've used it for over a decade.

That said, Googling the mailing lists/forums suggest that Netatalk is pretty broken when it comes to running on OS X as the server. Unless it's been magically fixed recently the best chance you'd have for Netatalk fixing your problems would be to set up a Linux machine to act as a file and print server and use it as a way station between the Classic and the Neo-Macs.

(I still have 10.5 on both my MacBook Pros, so I can't try compiling it myself on 10.6 to see exactly what problems there may be.)