Problems Booting Up...

[Mithrandir]

Ok so my quadra 610 has been acting up a little the past few days. I managed to perform a complete install of OS 7.6.1. The problem is that my compute only manages to boot up one out of every few times. Sometimes it will boot up perfectly, and then the next few times I will get that question marked floppy disk. This supposedly means that my hard disk is not being recognized, but I know that the HD works because it boots up the mac sometimes, just not consistently. I know that the PRAM battery in this machine is dead, so I was wondering if you guys think that the pram could be responsible for this, or if I have a bad hard drive. (Hopefully not the second one.) If you do think a dead PRAM could be causing this,then I will head over to Radioshack later today. Furthermore, if it is the PRAM, how would I go about replacing it, because I see where it is in the computer, but it is surrounded by a black casing and there are cords on top of it which are connected to my various drives. If it happens to be a hard drive problem, are there ways I can troubleshoot it, such as reconnecting cables or opening it? Finally, worst case scenario, would this hard drive work in my quadra if I ABSOLUTELY have to replace it -> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Quantum-2 ... 600wt_1413. Thanks so much.

[spiceyokooko]

Firstly, I'm not sure I'd immediately assume that your HD is playing up - the symptoms you report could be caused by a lot of things.

Secondly, a flashing question mark in a floppy icon is telling you the machine can't find a system to boot from. If you got a flashing X inside a floppy icon it's telling you it can't find a device with a system to boot from - that's what you would normally get if the machine couldn't see your hard disk.

The first thing I think I would do (particularly since the machine has just been shipped to you, connections can work loose) is check and reseat all the connections inside the computer, that includes RAM, Video Card if it's got one, SCSI and power cables to the HD etc. Make sure you follow the advice on static discharge and ground yourself before you start fiddling inside the machine.

The next thing I'd do is look up and check the HD jumper settings particularly the SCSI ID and termination settings on the internal HD and make sure they're correct. The first and last devices in a SCSI chain need to be terminated.

Once you've done all of that and you're sure in your own mind that everything is connected and terminated correctly and the problem persists, you can start to trouble-shoot what might be causing the erratic start up problems.

[Mithrandir]

Ok I am thinking you are right spiceyokooko. This is because nothing that is happening is consistent. Sometimes it will boot 10 times in a row perfectly, other times it refuses to at all. Sometimes I get that question mark floppy on boot up, and I even got this screen once (Will post a SIMILIAR picture below). Probably something got loose in the mail. Before I open it up, I have no experience with working inside of older macs. What should I look for as far as Safety Concerns? How should I ground/discharge myself and the mac? And by all the cables do you mean the wide ribbon things, or do you mean the colored wires? Thanks.

[spiceyokooko]

From what you're describing, it does sound a lot like a SCSI ID conflict or termination issue, but as I said previously it could also be a lot of other things as well.

What you need to do is start narrowing down what it can be and to start you need to check and ensure everythings connected correctly. With regards to static discharge, you need to discharge yourself by touching a grounded metallic object, usually the power supply casing and then put on an anti-static wrist strap that stays attached to a ground point and around your wrist whilst you work on the machine. You can get two types of these, the disposable paper/carbon variety (the cheapest) and a purpose made one that has a wrist strap, wire that attaches to it and either a plug that goes into the power supply and connects only to the ground pin or one that simply has a crocodile clip that attaches to a ground point. Check out eBay for anti-static wrist straps.

For the purpose of poking around inside, you can simply keep one hand on the grounded power supply casing whilst the other checks connections, but obviously it's not easy to reseat connections with only one hand!

It's best to replace the PRAM battery if you can, if only to simply rule it out as an issue, it's easy enough to pop the top off the battery holder and replace the battery. They're usually 3.6v 1/2 AA Lithiums, but check and make sure the one you remove is the same spec as the one you put in.

Whilst you've got the top off, take down the make and model no. of the HD and look it up online for the termination and SCSI ID jumper settings.

[Mithrandir]

Two more things to update Spiceyokooko. First of all, the floppy disk that often shows up is definitely a question mark, never an X. Second of all, I am no computer expert, but I have an idea about what the problem might be. My quadra has 44mb of ram, as displayed by the "about this macintosh" screen. On this screen, where the unused amount of ram is displayed, this number is constantly flickering between different amounts, the number never stays constant even long enough for me to read it. Could this be a hint that the Ram needs to be reseated? Reply at your convenience.
Regards,
Mithrandir

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Definitely re-seat the SIMMs, when you have them out, give 'em the pencil eraser cleaning of the teeth treatment while you're at it.

Is your Quadra set for 32bit addressing? ISTR this being the only way the Quadras ran, but check the memory control panel to make sure anyway after you get it to boot. While you're at it, make sure Virtual Memory is off.

Can't think of anything else offhand . . . sleepy . . .

[Mithrandir]

Thanks for the reply trash. Should I take the pencil-eraser method literally? Can the eraser be pink or white? Do I just rub it back and forth? Sorry about all the questions.

[Mk.558]

Won't matter.

Even better if you can get or use on of those "Magic Erasers" that they have in the cleaning section of the department store. Actually have many uses...such as when you put permanent marker accidentally on an LCD screen...

Even better still is if you get some 99% alcohol. Don't drink it. Use it to wash down the board real well, I used some on a tightly wound Q-tip (I heard medical swabs are better for that though) to "scrub" the ROM SIMM contacts and tried to clean the SIMM slots on the board. Good stuff, washes away crud and doesn't leave much residue, evaporates fast so try not to breath it in. A soft clean toothbrush is a real winning combo.

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Yup, very literally, just rub the eraser across the edgecard connector's contacts to make 'em shiny-n-new lookin' before re-installation.

Keep the heel of one hand touching the sheet metal of your case while it holds the SIMMs in place and buff 'em up with a soft, CLEAN eraser on a pencil or the hand held type. Color doesn't really matter, but use the kind for #2 pencil, NOT the abrasive ones for ink.

[Mithrandir]

Well I went ahead and used rubbing alcohol to clean the ram and the contacts. I managed to removed three of the chips out of four. Two of these were thin boards, and one was a little thicker. The fourth one, which was also a thicker one, wouldn't budge. Should I try removing this one too? Oh and I also reconnected the four cords the attach to the optical and hard drives. The amount of unused ram is no longer flickering, and I have had three successful boots in a row.

[Mithrandir]

Update: Ok so I reseated the ram as mentioned in my previous post. The system booted up well three times in a row after that, but that was probably just luck. This is because the next morning it was back to the old floppy with a question mark on it. I am beginning to think that the problem lies in the hard drive after all. Either the hard drive itself is sticking, and this is why it only boots up every once in awhile, or the cables connecting the hd need to be reattached, although I find the second option unlikely because I already reattached them when upgrading the ram. Furthermore, when I am shown the question mark floppy disk at startup, I am able to insert a floppy with a system 7.1 system folder on it and the machine will boot up perfectly every single time. Once the machine has booted up from the floppy, the hard drive is not displayed on the desktop, which means that it is not being found right? Because if it was just a matter of the system folder not being found, the hard disk would still be recognized, correct? I am going to include some pictures to help show you guys what I am talking about. Thanks for your help so far, really without this site I would be toast (without jam).

OK here is a series of photos when my quadra recognizes the hard drive and boots up successfully.

Next is a crash screen that appears occasionally. It always has the same numbers and symbols under the mac though, so this probably tells you guys something.

Finally is the icon that I get when it cannot find my HD (or find my system folder...)

0110.png (1.6 KiB) Viewed 1028 times

So to sum things up here... There are three different screens I get when I turn on my quadra. Either a successful boot, a crash screen, or a question mark floppy. Once I get it to boot correctly once. It will keep booting correctly until I leave it for a bit and try again. Then the occasional crash screen is mixed in with all this. I am guessing this is because once I get the hard Disk unstuck, it will keep running until the drive has a chance to stick again. But once again, this is just a guess...

[Mk.558]

You know what you should do, is get your mittens on a MacTest Pro disk.

Even Apple Service disks and service manuals specify it.

[bibilit]

Nice screen shot looks like BeOs isnt it ?

[mcdermd]

Some sort of Be theming, I'd say.

[CC_333]

Hi There,

It sounds a bit like the hard drive is getting physically stuck. The reason being is, I think, after a few tries, the grease in the drive's motor loosens up, and the disk spins freely. It'll work consistently (assuming no other damage exists) as long as it doesn't stop spinning. When it does, the grease cools down and keeps the disk from spinning again; the cycle repeats. I believe this is called "stiction", and I've read that sharply twisting the drive in the same plane as the disk will sometimes free it up.

Perhaps giving that a try will rule out any problem with the computer's electronics?

Here is a question: when the error screen and/or question mark appears, do you hear the hard disk spin? If it's quiet (or clicking softly), then it's sticking. Then try tapping the drive to see if that frees it.

Hopefully, this is a temporary condition (unfortunately, however, the intermittent nature of the problem would seem to suggest otherwise). In an effort to encourage positive thinking, I'd like to share a success story, if I may:

Several years ago, I was given a Power Macintosh 7500, and the original 700 MB drive wouldn't spin up. I took it out and put it aside, figuring it was dead. A couple years later, I came across it again, and forgot why I didn't use it. I plugged it in to a power source, and it didn't spin, like before. Once I whacked it on the top cover, it came right to life after some very loud whirring sounds (perhaps the sound of the bearings being re-lubricated after sitting idle for x years). It still works fine to this day with no sticking whatsoever (yet).

I hope this helps!

c

[spiceyokooko]

Did you check the SCSI ID jumper settings and termination settings on the hard disk drive?

The intermittent startup problems you describe are typical of either a SCSI ID clash or incorrect termination.

You really need to rule these out before assuming the drive is faulty.

[Mithrandir]

Ummmm.... SCSI ID's? Incorrect Termination? Im a little lost here. What is it exactly that you need me to do? Can you post a link or instructions on how to do these things? Thanks.
Oh and I had a new boot sequence. This time I got the question mark floppy disk, but after I heard some scratching sounds from inside the machine, the happy mac appeared and it booted right up.

(and yeah, thats just kaleidoscope with the BeOS theme. I think it looks kinda cool.)

[bibilit]

I was thinking,is the HD cable ok, can you have a try with another one ?

[beachycove]

Ummmm.... SCSI ID's? Incorrect Termination? Im a little lost here.

If you don't know what this is about, the painful truth is that there a need to work this out for yourself if you plan to play with old Macs. It comes up all the time, and can be confusing — it was known back in the day as SCSI Voodoo for a reason (the rules are arcane and occasionally it just doesn't seem to play by the rules).

The (very) basics run as follows:

Termination: the SCSI chain must be terminated or you will get very erratic behaviour, consistent with what you are getting. Some hard drives have automatic termination (though never the CD drive AFAIK), but some require a jumper across pins usually labelled TE or similar. Some machines (e.g., the Q950) supposedly require a physical terminator plugged into the cable ribbon, so there are just eccentric machines out there. You need to read up on the question, and for this, Google or better still, old Macintosh manuals (Macintosh Bible or the like) would be useful.

ID: The ID numbers of the hard drive and of the CD must also be set by jumpers, and must be set to different numbers, or 'twill likely never boot at all. For a Quadra, it is probably best to set the CD ID to 3 and the hard drive to 0, 1 or 2 (these, indeed, may be all the choices you have on the drive, if it is original).

If this makes no sense, post pics of the drives with jumper configurations.

This page from the mothership might be a good place to start for concepts and terminology: http://support.apple.com/kb/TA27743?viewlocale=en_US

[Bunsen]

I know that the PRAM battery in this machine is dead ... The system booted up well three times in a row ... the next morning it was back to the old floppy with a question mark

This is a pretty good indicator that the PRAM battery is your problem, or at least one of your problems. Overnight is long enough for the PRAM circuit to discharge. You really need to replace that battery before proceeding.

[beachycove]

This is a pretty good indicator that the PRAM battery is your problem....

I have never heard of a dead pram battery causing actual error messages. Can it?

[Bunsen]

or at least one of your problems

[Mithrandir]

Thanks for the replies guys. I will try to get some photos in order for you guys to get to help me out some more. I am trying to understand this scsi concept, it is just going to take a little bit of time for me. And in the meantime, those here with much more experience in that area might be able to help out as well. So in order for that to happen, I need to know what parts of the computer you need photographs of. Do you guys just need like photos of the hard drive and the cords attached to it, or do you need other parts photographed as well? When you let me know, Ill try to get some really nice photos for you to look at. Let me know at your convenience.

Mithrandir

[techknight]

you heard a scratching sound from inside then the machine booted? when the machine sits at floppy disk blinking question mark, do you hear the scratching sound then?

Sounds like the HDD is bad bro.

[Mithrandir]

Ok well I have ordered a replacement Hard Drive and it will get here later this week. Hopefully this will solve the problem but I will let you guys know how it turns out. Thanks.