CF AztecMonsters have landed

[ojfd]

There are several factors involved re. SCSI performance. I won't start posting everything yet, let's start with this one - have you tried ATTO Express Pro Tools benchmarking utility instead of FWB?

Here's a bit info on it and many pictures with examples how to interpret the data:

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/ULTIMATE_MAC ... ndex3.html

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/SCSI/9600/index.html

Express Pro Tools used to be available free of charge on ATTO website. If you can't locate installers there, PM me. (I am using v. 2.3.2 on older machines and 2.8 on G4 OS8/9).

I quickly checked HD performance on my highly tuned 40MHz Q605 / 7.6.1 / Quantum Fireball 540 and got following numbers, for comparision:

Sustained read - 3.91 MB/s
Peak read - 4.44 MB/s
Sustained write - 3.53 MB/s
Peak write - 3.60 MB/s

Max transfer size - 2 MB (!)

This is as good as it gets for 40 MHz 68040 processor and more modern SCSI chip than that of SE/30.

Here's the Kingston USB stick on this same G4/1GHz Digital Audio I'm typing right now.

[ojfd]

Some more food for thoughts...

1. Have you configured / optimised your driver?
2. How does Aztec monster behave? Like SCSI drive or like IDE drive?

When you go to Configure drive dialog in FWB, the window should look similar to these two.
(I took screenshots of 4.5.2 version, but, I think 3.0.2 and 2.5.3 must have similar functionality).
Does the window look like this one

scsi_configure.jpg (51.1 KiB) Viewed 664 times

or does it look similar to that?

[IamSpartacus]

FYI, FWB Configure 3.0.2 looks nothing like that. I don't have an aztec, but my SE/30 CF card setup has similar performance, and is presented like a SCSI device, not IDE. Take a look-





I haven't tried editing any of the settings. Looks like it would be all too easy to fubar up my drive.

[ojfd]

Spartacus,

Please, DO NOT CONFUSE other readers and check your facts before posting.

I was referring to Hard Disk Toolkit application's "Configure driver" window and NOT to application FWB Configure.

THIS ONE!

[tt]

So how did Manabu get his performance curves? According to him the device is more than capable for an SE/30. Something just does not jive here.

[JDW]

Don't inherently trust the performance data published by Manabu Sakai of ARTMIX! I am not calling Manabu Sakai a liar, nor am I suggesting he is ripping people off. But I am suggesting that he may not have produced accurate data.

I once questioned him intensely about this, and he stopped talking to me. I then telephoned his parents home (he still lives with them, not uncommon in Japan), and he put his mother on the line and refused to talk to me, even though I was speaking Japanese!

Since then I have not been inclined to buy any CF card solution from ARTMIX *until* I see scientific evidence (not just "it FEELS faster" experiences) that proves his products do in fact offer the same or better performance than a spinning platter hard drive. And that is why I eagerly await seeing the results of your efforts here. For if it FEELS faster, then I am inclined to believe it must really be faster, and therefore there must be some scientific means of proving that as fact.

[IamSpartacus]

ojfd, HDT 3.0.2 has no such functionality outside the FWB configure app. Just volunteering info that may be relevant to the problem. Yell at someone else.

[ojfd]

That is BULL, Spartacus, RTFM!

Do you have application called "Hard Disk Toolkit™" on your hard drive, no matter which version?

If answer is "Yes",

1. Start it
2. In main window, click on "Device view" tab
3. Double click on the line with your hard drive, or
4. from the menu "Devices" select "View partitions"

What do you see?

P.S. Don't let me go and pull out my Quadra with HTD 3.0.2 on it just to make screenshots and prove it that it has identical functionality.

[MacJunky]

While you guys are faffing about with FWB junk I am quite looking forward to seeing benching being done with other programs.
Could someone please actually look into HDD results from MacBench and Norton Util's thingybenchyapp?

Also, Udo.Keller, I would like to ask that you please refrain from posting multiple images that are 1.5MB+ they add up way too fast considering that cmd+shift+3 takes a more readable and overall better looking shot of the screen and the files can be physically smaller as well.
*Edit
Actually, only two of the really big ones were of your screen, sorry. Either way, a sceenshot itself in the right format is still so much faster to load. I will not take issue with two large pictures of the hardware you are using, that is understandable. (thumbnails are winrar though)

[IamSpartacus]

ojfd, I stand corrected. I'd RTFM if I had a manual, but they're hard to find for 15 year old software. I don't want to take this thread too far off topic, but for what it's worth my flash setup displays a SCSI dialogue for the device driver, not IDE.

[ojfd]

ojfd, I stand corrected. I'd RTFM if I had a manual, but they're hard to find for 15 year old software. dialogue for the device driver, not IDE.

Told you so

Give me the address where to upload, and you can have it. ~3MB
Or buy a hard copy - they show up on ebone from time to time. Very good reading.

Hang on, do you have Aztec Monster installed? If so, please post the dialogue screenshot, I'd like to see which options are grayed out compared to screenshot I posted well above.

[ojfd]

Hang on, do you have Aztec Monster installed? If so, please post the dialogue screenshot, I'd like to see which options are grayed out compared to screenshot I posted well above.

Follow up - Hard Disk Toolkit is known to revert to very conservative driver settings when dealing with "unsupported" drives. I had to set these manually many times in the past.
In any case:
1. "Auto bad block reallocation" slows the drive down slightly (almost unnoticable).
2. "Verify vrites" slows the drive down enormously.
3. "Synchronize cache on shutdown" only needed on host adapters.
4. "Allow disconnect" is essential.
5. "Blind transfers" is essential.
6. "Disable parity" should be checked, if not grayed out.
7. "Command cueing OK" should be checked, if not grayed out and if it is known that Aztec Monster supports this feature.

[IamSpartacus]

I do not have an aztec monster. I have an acard 7720u SCSI->IDE and a fast compact flash card, so what I have to say is of limited value to this thread. I'm posting here because I see a similar performance limit with my setup, and suspect a common cause.

The default HDT driver settings for the above are:



I attempted these settings, without any effect on the poor perf results:



I also tried upping the max chunk size to 65535, (and a few other numbers) without any benefit. This (non aztec) flash drive, so far, has a max transfer speed of half a meg/sec on my SE/30.

[ojfd]

I do not have an aztec monster. I have an acard 7720u SCSI->IDE and a fast compact flash card, so what I have to say is of limited value to this thread. I'm posting here because I see a similar performance limit with my setup, and suspect a common cause.

So do I, but the cause has to be isolated first.

The default HDT driver settings for the above are:

Just what I thought...

I attempted these settings, without any effect on the poor perf results:
<snip>
also tried upping the max chunk size to 65535, (and a few other numbers) without any benefit. This (non aztec) flash drive, so far,has a max transfer speed of half a meg/sec on my SE/30.

You really have to try ATTO benchmarking utility and take measurements before and after changes, to be certain. Maybe the test has to be done on faster Mac, just to be sure that it's not the SE/30's SCSI controller, that's bottleneck here.

One also has to remember what the differences between SCSI and IDE are, namely, SCSI devices have a lot of circuitry, that does their "housekeeping" and buffers that optimize data flow from drive to buss and back, whereas IDE does not have this circuitry - that's why IDE drives were always cheaper back in the day. I suspect that AztecMonster and Acard are simple SCSI to IDE command translators, hence the poor performance, but this is where my knowledge of such devices ends.

[ojfd]

By the way, here are the test results of PQI IDE Disk On Module on Pentium II MoBo under DOS I did some time ago. I replaced the boot drive with Flash drive on that specific system and also was surprised to see the performance loss.
Pay attention on how access times increase with increased Block Size.

[ojfd]

ojfd, I stand corrected. I'd RTFM if I had a
manual, but they're hard to find for 15 year old software. dialogue for
the device driver, not IDE.

Give me the address where to upload, and you can have it. ~3MB
Or buy a hard copy - they show up on ebone from time to time. Very good reading.

'IamSpartacus'
Check this link.
http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=160732#p160732
http://themacarchive.net/

Know how tu use HL?
"Uploads" folder

[IamSpartacus]

My compact flash perf issues have been fixed (though not explained). When I initialize the drive with HDT, it has a 500k/sec bottleneck. When I initialize it with a patched version of Apple HD SC Setup 7.3.5 (located here: ftp://grijan.cjb.net:21000/macintosh/Software/Utilities/hd_sc_setup_735-patched.sea.bin), transfer speeds triple to 1700k/sec. Details in this thread - http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=17229

If this hasn't been tried with the aztecs yet, I'd recommend it.

[ojfd]

My compact flash perf issues have been fixed (though not explained).
When I initialize the drive with HDT, it has a 500k/sec bottleneck. When I initialize it with a patched version of Apple HD SC Setup 7.3.5 (located here:
ftp://grijan.cjb.net:21000/macintosh/Software/Utilities/hd_sc_setup_735-patched.sea.bin),
transfer speeds triple to 1700k/sec.

Aha! I suspected something similar, but we haven't arrived there yet.. (one step at the time)
It's nice that you've got it working in a "quick and dirty" way, but don't jump to conclusions too soon.
Hard Disk Toolkit is very powerfull application, but as I mentioned before, it defaults to very conservative settings on drives that it "doesn't know".
Those of you, who don't want to deal with technical issues will be well served by patched Apple's HD SC Setup.
Those, wishing to try to squeeze out maximum of your flash drive's performance, have to have a look at
drive's MODE PAGES by using "FWB Configure" application, change those settings, run ATTO tests, change settings again....more tests....etc.
Manuals and tools are upped (see my previous post)
.
Good luck!

[JDW]

Aha! I suspected something similar, but we haven't arrived there yet.. (one step at the time)

Why aren't we there yet? And why must one take a step at a time? Seems clear to me that used the patched driver eliminates the bottleneck in a matter of seconds.

Or are you suggesting that by tweaking FWB's driver further, one could expect even greater performance from it? If so, what are the specifics of accomplishing that?

[IamSpartacus]

Ack, hold on guys. The drive is very unstable for any purpose besides benchmarking. Investigating further...

[ojfd]

Why aren't we there yet?

Because someone has other jobs too.

And why must one take a step at a time?

To make sure that some noob (this is not personal, btw) doesn't come back to this forum bad mouthing drive manufacturers or applications after his quick button pressing exercise and major @#ck-up afterwards.
Seriously, if you have to ask these questions, you probably do not know how FWB apps work.

Or are you suggesting that by tweaking FWB's driver further, one could expect even greater performance from it?

Maybe. Maybe not. Try it. I have no horse in this race.

If so, what are the specifics of accomplishing that?

Driver + Mode pages settings. Please, consult manual, it's all there.

[JDW]

I have no horse in this race.

For not having a horse, you do pretty well with the advice!

My advice... Get a horse!

[ojfd]

Although this FAQ deals with v.2.0, much of that applies to later versions of FWB as well.

http://web.archive.org/web/19970127043809/http://www.fwb.com/software/support/tech_support/pefaq2.html

'Spartacus', what OS are you using? Care to list all Extensions and CPs that load on your machine?

EDIT - I see that you're on 7.5..

From FWB FAQ as of 1997:

# SCSI problems associated with SCSI Manager 4.3.

If you are having SCSI problems and are running System 7.5, FWB (because of reported problems which have been experienced by many users , developers and Mac magazines like MacWeek) recommends that users should disable the SCSI Manager 4.3 Extension. The problems are widespread and are occurring with all SCSI vendors and software drivers. Apple is working resolving these issues, in the meantime disable this extension. The SCSI Manager built into the Macintosh ROM does not seem to exhibit the same problems and is fine. It might be advisable to upgrade your system software to System 7.5.1 as this uses a newer version of the SCSI Manager 4.3 extension that does not appear to exhibit the same problems as its predecessor.

[IamSpartacus]

I'm using a vanilla install of 7.5.5, which lacks a scsi manager extension. Just to recap:

Initialize the CF card with HDT = slow but functional

Initialize the CF card with patched Apple HD SC Setup = fast but hard system crash within seconds of writing data to it. Afterwards, system will not boot. I have to reformat the CF card in my SLR to revive. Needless to say, I don't recommend this approach.

[Udo.Keller]

Good to see some new life here. Glad you tuned in.

Some more food for thoughts...

1. Have you configured / optimised your driver?
2. How does Aztec monster behave? Like SCSI drive or like IDE drive?

(1) I have not configured the driver yet. Still using default parameters.
(2) The Aztec presents a SCSI device.

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