SE/30 Expansion

[beachycove]

Ethernet cards like the MacCon made for the SE/30 and the IIsi had a PDS pass-through connector. What was this pass-through connector for?

Can an SE/30, for instance, take a PDS video card (lying horizontally across the machine) along with the vertically-mounted ethernet card? I ask because I have a number of SE/30 video cards and am wondering what can be done with them.

A question related to this would be: could I try the configuration out on a IIsi, which is obviously easier to work on, without frying something? A video card made for the SE/30 should work in a IIsi, right?

[Bunsen]

It is what it is - a pass through (or duplicate) of the motherboard PDS slot, so you can add more than one card. Each one has to have a different slot ID - gamba's "SE/30 Corner" has more details on what works with what:
http://home.earthlink.net/~gamba2/se30_ ... tiple.html
Also:
http://www.biwa.ne.jp/~shamada/fullmac/ ... erEng.html

[Anonymous Freak]

If you don't mind running the SE/30 without its "bucket" (case back,) you can fit three cards in at once.

There are quite a few people who have put two cards in an SE/30 just fine; most are either an accelerator + Ethernet, or grayscale + Ethernet.

[beachycove]

Thanks for the links.

On further reading there and some separate investigation, it looks like my SE/30 ethernet cards are one and all too short physically to do what I wanted -- which is why the Japanese fellow is able to sell his adapter cards for the SE/30, allowing the user to do just what I wanted. Making the MacCon ethernet card so short was, in retrospect, a rather poor move on Asante's part, though I suppose as it was made for the IIsi also, it made a kind of sense at the time....

I don't think, alas, that I'll be buying the Japanese adapter any time soon. It's an expensive toy!

[JDW]

the Japanese fellow...

That would be Mr. Manabu Sakai of ARTMIX Japan, from whom I purchased the TS Adapter PDS slot riser card, several photos shown here:

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=stratos ... 1596%40N00

It is expensive. But whether it is merely a "toy" or not depends on your plans for it. Presently, it is a "toy" for me since I am not using it because I have a DiiMO 030 accelerator card in my SE/30 now (along with my MacCon). But when I used the TS Adapter in conjunction with my Daystar Turbo 040 40MHz accelerator and MacCon Ethernet cards, it was more than a toy, believe me.

[Bunsen]

Your other option is to find or hack together a EuroDIN right angle connector and mount your second card sideways. Course, that involves moving stuff around...

Check out this Applefritter thread. NB: looking at his first diagram, I can't work out why he doesn't just mount the video card horizontally and move the hard drive.

/edit/ Oh...

THe first thing I tried was to have the rasterops card go horizontally and it collides with the tube...

[beachycove]

I don't think it would collide with the tube if the floppy drive in particular weren't in the way. It might well do that if attached to the riser card pictured, however.

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

< . . . sneaks into SE/30 territory just to look around . . . >
< . . . wonders which way the card would point if a IIsi NuBus Adapter were stuck into an SE/30's PDS . . . >
< . . . if it were to point OUTSIDE the box . . . runs slide show inside cranium . . . prolly the wrong way . . . >
< . . . figures some of the signals were switched around by Apple's Gremlins anyway . . . >
< . . . wonders if a three-way EuroDIN connector hack would allow a vertical 1/2 length NuBus "sidecar" hack . . . >
< . . . maybe that'd enable trace switching and glue chip tomfoolery to fix any incompatibilities . . . >
< . . . HRMMMMMMM . . . that'd be 1 NuBus and 2 PDS Cards . . . >
< . . . decides NOT to get wrapped up in SE/30 hacking . . . >
< . . . sneaks back out . . . escaping unscathed . . . >

[Bunsen]

< . . . goes looking for images of IIsi Nubus and dual slot Nubus/PDS adapters on the net . . . >

I don't think it would collide with the tube if the floppy drive in particular weren't in the way. It might well do that if attached to the riser card pictured, however.

Definitely sounds worth investigating.

[Bunsen]

< . . . wonders which way the card would point if a IIsi NuBus Adapter were stuck into an SE/30's PDS . . . >

http://www.vectronicsappleworld.com/col ... ciisi.html shows the Nubus adapter mounted with the Daystar adapter -

As you can see the Nubus slot points straight at the Daystar accelerator. Even without an accelerator in the lower slot, the Nubus slot points straight down at the motherboard. Something along the way, probably more than one thing, would have to be right angled to make it possible, even barring case issues.

< . . . in head, flips Daystar adapter 90˚ to the left, accelerator 90˚ to the right . . . >
< . . . orders some right angle EuroDIN adapters to play with . . . >

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

< . . . considers warning B to compare the orientation of Pin 1 of adapter <-> to SE/30 PDS . . . before proceeding . . . >
< . . . wonders if it's worth mentioning that replacing the connector on the Adapter with a wire wrap connector would . . . >
< . . . wonders about mentioning the MacCharlie expansion bay gambit . . . . . . >
< . . . decides to remain mute, just to see what happens . . . . . . >
< . . . beats feets before getting involved in yet another windmill tilting extravaganza . . . . . . >

[Bunsen]

orientation of Pin 1 of adapter <-> to SE/30 PDS

Just give it to me straight, I can take it - the IIsi and SE/30 PDS slots are 180˚ rotated compared to each other or something - yeah? As in, one has Pin 1 towards the rear of the case, and the other away from the rear?

/ETA/ Well, that would make sense: the slot's on the opposite side of the motherboard


Noted

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

< . . . alas . . . it appears that I can no longer remain silent . . . . . . >

Trash80toHP_Mini wrote:orientation of Pin 1 of adapter <-> to SE/30 PDS

Just give it to me straight, I can take it - the IIsi and SE/30 PDS slots are 180˚ rotated compared to each other or something - yeah? As in, one has Pin 1 towards the rear of the case, and the other away from the rear?

Okay, you got me out of the woodwork!
I haven't had an SE/30 since the great storage room fiasco and I've never had access to a IIsi so . . .
I just don't know, but I'd sure as $**T check it out before proceeding.

If it's oriented correctly, I'd just desolder the IIsi adapter's RA EuroDin Connector and replace it with a Straight up Wire Wrap Connector so the wire wrap tines on the bottom plug straight into the SE/30's PDS, the IIsi adapter sticks out the left side with the NuBus card pointin' straight up.

I'd hide the sucker in a homebrew MacCharlie case fabbed from clear plexi along with a clear plexi bucket for the SE/30. IIRC, that'd also provide one or two 5.25" FDD slots to stick a slot loading CD/DVD drive someplace w/o bangin' into anything inside the /30's overly cramped bucket.

I'd test lining the suckers with metal mesh to create a Faraday Cage to pole-axe any RFI problems right on the head and still keep both the Plexi cases see-thru.

If the slots're reversed, it's just PCB Layout PlayTime and it'd probably make "doing a three-way" a lot less cramped. You've just gotta keep all the traces even in length to each slot and arrange them any which way all the non-NuBus related cards'll fit into the /30's bucket just to make sure the SE/30 purists don't come after you with pitchforks like the townies in Van Helsing!

Whatever! Dunno, I've never been impressed by, nor interested in all the SE/30 upgrade hoopla, To me it's just another Apple example of way too small a PSU coupled with way too few slots. It ought to have periscope handles sticking out the sides, like the ones I was tempted to slap onto my SE/Radius16 right after I got my first Ch3@PA$$ 19" Panasonic B&W TPD & NuBus card!

I KNOW I'm speaking Compact Mac heresy and a LOT of the comrades'll probably wanna stone me for it, but that's just the way I feel!
The NuBus Sidecar Hack just popped into my head and now I've gotten myself mired in SE/30 lalaland!

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

So you're online posting piccies while I'm doinkin' in my reply!

You TELL ME!

[Bunsen]

Look at Von's diagram:

(click to embiggen)

His Ethernet card and Daystar adapter both work in either the IIsi or the SE/30. In both cases, cards added to them mount over the motherboard, and inside the case - in the SE/30, on the right *, heading left, and in the IIsi on the left, heading right. Therefore the two PDS slots must be reversed relative to each other.

Course, the SE/30 was never designed to take a Nubus card. Presumably this also means any back panel connector soldered directly to a (Nubus or IIsi-only PDS) card will end up buried deep inside the SE/30. This must be why so many '030 PDS cards have a cable and a separate PCB for the back panel connector.

* from case front.

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Course, the SE/30 was never designed to take a Nubus card. Presumably this also means any back panel connector soldered directly to a (Nubus or IIsi-only PDS) card will end up buried deep inside the SE/30. This must be why so many '030 PDS cards have a cable and a separate PCB for the back panel connector.

Hence, the MacCharlie SideCar Expansion Chassis Hack!
http://www.vintagemacworld.com/charlie.html



If you ask me, they've been forever stuffing WAY too much crap into that 1.5 gal.bucket! What's the average lifespan of an SE/30 Analog Board after it's been put under that kinda load, BTW?

Lunatic Hackers!

[JDW]

What's the average lifespan of an SE/30 Analog Board after it's been put under that kinda load, BTW?

Since the SE/30 has a PSU separate from the Analog Board, the answer to your question is "more than 20 years" based on my observations of SE/30 analog board longevity. But clearly your intent was to talk about the PSU. The SE/30's PSU box can supply more power than you may expect. However, the answer to "how long the PSU would last" depends on how many PDS cards you also have attached, how much RAM, and what kind of hard disk. You would also need to factor in any other external devices -- the total power draw.

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Cool! I don't remember if mine ever worked or if I ever even cracked the case. It was a freebie from the Salvation Army Thrift Shop near my Sign Shop. If the SE/30 has a "standard" PSU/Analog Board Combo, things just got waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more interesting!

Pics to be uploaded momentarily!

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

I did some image-flippin' after I snagged the SE/30 MoBo piccie, threw it onto HP_Mini's upstairs 32" LCD "Monitor" to examine the Keying on the /30's PDS Connector as compared to that of my IIsi NuBus Adapter's Connector. I came to several conclusions:
(1) MacCharlie is outta' the picture . . .
(2) the two outside rows of connections would wind up flipped . . .
(3) . . . they're scarce as hen's teeth and don't fit with the /30 historically anyway so . . .
(4) . . . fabbin' one outta clear plexi wouldn't SE/30 Correct anyhoot!
(5) . . . and it's not a problem!

(6) The 'ole ZFP_Sub-BasementExpansionBay™ ploy is the answer to a NuBus friendly SE/30 Hack!

You've gotta flip this piccie 90 degrees leftwise to have it line up with the Gamba Diagrams, but it posts better as is.

The VST ThinPack background (Auxiliary PowerBook Battery) was thrown in to show off my PB100_Sub-BasementExpansionBay™ as well as to make the background clutter of my Bedroom TeakHackStation™ disappear!

This pic details the edge of the connector that'll make this hack a (decent solderer's) snap!


IIRC, they're called Machine Pin Sockets and they're upside down in the pic. The "Socket" is a perfectly round funnel shape that sticks onto the Solder Side of an SE/30 or IIsi PDS without any connective material at all. The rows I have on hand are even the perfect length for a NuBus Connector! They're snappable and three rows should be no problem, the only mod that might be necessary would be to sand/file a tad off each side of the center row's plastic or a bit off the inner side of the two outer rows.

The Machine Pin Sockets would be soldered to the SE/30 PDS Nubbins on the solder side of the MoBo.

I'd use ChipQuick and a heat shield along with a Heat Gun to yank the IIsi NuBus Adapter's RA PDS and Straight Up NuBus Connectors right off the card in one (actually two, but "one" sounds better) fell swoop!

The PDS Connector would be replaced with said Machine Pin Sockets while the Straight Nubus Connector would be replaced with the RA Version of same. That'll lay the NuBus Card flat, parallel with the SE/30 MoBo. It'll still be BackPlane forward, but that's actually a BIG PLUS!

Clearly, any number of SE/30 or IIsi Cards could be modified so as to stack neatly within the deepest darkest depths of the sub-terranian chamber of SE/30 hackin'horrors!



Here are some shots of the my Hackin'Connectors collection that I pulled out of the Magic Chest of Plastic Drawers™!









< . . . wonders if he should mention the DuoDock's 2 Slot NuBus Daughtercard or not . . . >
< . . . successfully fights off the urge to do any actual SE/30 hackin' . . . >
< . . . sneaks back out of SE/30 Territory before the lynch party forms . . . >

[beachycove]

Well, that's got me thinking of what I might get up to one cold winter night next year....

[beachycove]

And according to this document, 2-18, one of the MacCon cards (I seem to recall that I have one) had a removeable AUI daughter card on the connections board, making it possible to replace it with a video port from a card such as one of these. Those ribbons did come in handy....

Now all I have to do is see for sure if a right-angle adapter can be fashioned by cannibalizing one of my spare IIsi nubus adapters. If so, then it seems that an Asante MacCon + piggy-backed SE/30 PDS video card mounted vertically in an SE/30 should be eminently possible, even for the electronically-challenged.

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Well, that's got me thinking of what I might get up to one cold winter night next year....

What's "THAT," bc?

What's so special about the SE/30 Graphic Cards anyway? I know some will drive the internal at GrayScale Values, or do they ALL do that and Dual Head on an external color monitor too?

Wouldn't a newer, better, short-to-middlin length, NuBus Card in a ZFP Sub-Basement Expansion Bay be a better choice?

. . . or maybe a third (monitor) choice?

I'm kinda new to the SE/30 hackin' thing (and trying to stay way out on the fringes without actually procuring a /30!) and don't want to take much time away for it from my primary hackin' goals.

I'm just gonna ask questions of the knowledgeable participants instead of Googlin' myself, but I might come up with a few of my, normally, slightly skewed suggestions.

[Bunsen]

this piccie

MInd telling us exactly what cards you're playing with there? It'll make things a bit easier to follow.

Machine Pin Sockets

Hmm, interesting - and available locally and cheaply (that's +2 compared to EuroDIN adapters). Look as though they could be bent to convenient angles pretty easily too.

But if you attach them to the back of the card, then the pinout is going to be in the wrong order ...

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

But if you attach them to the back of the card, then the pinout is going to be in the wrong order ...

The "flip counter-clockwise to match the Gamba drawings" piccie is just the IIsi Nubus Adapter and some nondescript Thick/ThinNet Card.

If you'll notice, it's to be mounted to the SE/30 slot in a component side up orientation, so that ALL SIGNALS pass through in the proper order!

You'll need to remove the RA EuroDIN Male PDS Connector and solder a straight-up EuroDIN Female Connector to the IIsi Nubus Adapter. Then that'll plug into the Machine Pins soldered to the bottom of the SE/30's PDS.

If you replace the straight up NuBus Connector on the IIsi NuBus Adapter with a RA Connector, the NuBus card will lie flat, but pointing its @$$ END at the front bezel. If done this way, then several SE/30 a/o IIsi cards could be stacked underneath the IIsi NuBus adapter using EXACTLY the same modification processes!

Make full scale cardboard mock-ups of the cards, fake up some keyed EuroDIN connectors (maybe outta foam or corrugated cardboard) and play building blocks!

A scan of the /30 logic board at 100% would be VERY helpful to me if you SE/30 clowns'd like to tilt at NuBus Windmillss in yet another Quixotic Hackin' Quest, otherwise, I' goin' back where I belong.

< attempts to make a graceful exit before either an SE/30 Cult induction ceremony or a friggin' SE/30 Purist lynch mob has a chance to assemble . . . sigh . . . >

[beachycove]

The only thing special about the SE/30 PDS video cards is that I happen to have three of them; odds are that one of them must still work. I also have a 20" Radius greyscale monitor that's in beautiful condition, and am inclined to think that it would look good next to an SE/30 running an extended desktop, and with ethernet connectivity. That's the full story.