7.5.3 Network Access Disks

[Mk.558]

I've been thinking about a 7.5.3NAD for awhile now, and it may be possible.

I do have a couple of problems: The Disk Tools disks are the only ones that look like they will work. They don't support networking, in fact Disk Tools 2 pushes a Type 41 error from Finder on my Duo.

This would be a good development since alot of machines could use this sort of thing. Mainly because Apple's 7.5NAD is pretty much for machines that spec a minimum of 7.5 (like the LC580). All the PPC machines I looked at on everymac.com required 7.5.3 minimum (or 7.5.2).

I'll have to also work on a 7.0.1 NAD the SE/30 is recovered. What does the crew know/can do about this project?

[Dennis Nedry]

From what I gather, network access disks squish everything in there by removing some system resources. You could theoretically compare an existing network access disk's system file's resources to its full-version counterpart and remove the same resources from a 7.5.3 system file. Realistically, this probably won't squish it down enough in size and/or will break it for some things you'd like to remove. You may get away with using a pre-7.5.3 Finder. If not, you'll probably have to do the same thing to the Finder.

It's not a complicated thing to try, it's just time consuming. You would have to make a backup whenever you have a System File that still works, and test after every few things you remove.

This is the sort of thing that could even be attempted in SheepShaver. Undoubtedly there is some FAT code in the System File that could be stripped of its 68k code - that could in fact be complicated and tough to test.

[Mk.558]

I looked at ResCompare of the Disk Tools 2 System and compared it with a "Minimal Install for this Macintosh" and it's quite different...

The Installer says the Minimal Install will take about 1MB, but the System file alone from that dump is 2.5MB. Ludicrous...

I also looked at the Finder, there appears to be a lot of differences. I don't think the Finder is the culprit, but it would help. I can't see if ResCompare uses color for referencing, because I am limited by 16 greys.

[Dennis Nedry]

What I was thinking was to open a network access system file, and the same version of a normal system file, and compare them in ResEdit to see which resources are completely missing. For example, all color icon resources are probably missing on the network access one. So then you could try removing those same resources from a System 7.5.3 system. This could be any type of resource, not just icons.

ResCompare is going to actually look inside of resources, and that's not what you want. You do want the differences that 7.5.3 brought to the system file to remain in there.

[Mk.558]

I've decided to warm up by fiddling with a 7.1 Duo 210 to 280 NAD.

Here's a image of what I've come up with. Finder is under the scope today. We have a System Folder of 1810K-ish, that needs work down to about 1350K or so.

The working Finder is on the left side, the Disk Tools 7.1 is on the right. As you can see, we need to trim some resources.

Which ones should go? For a start, I can swap out all the color icns and PICTs with black and white ones. In the meantime, I'll muck around the extensions and see if I can pull stuff out.



EDIT: I don't think I need File Sharing Extension (172K FTW!!!), Network Extension is debateable, since the 7.5NAD doesn't have it. I'll fiddle around with things and see what I can do without. Since the Duo has MORE than enough memory in it right now for a RAM Disk, I'll boot off it since System, Finder and Duo Enabler take up 1431K, which is too much.

Time to pull out the Farallon iPrint...

EDIT2: Hooo humm...how do you formulate an answer for when the system says that Network Extension cannot be used because it is too new?

Odd...considering it was installed by the 7.1.1 Duo edition...maybe it's time to launch abort and head straight for the 7.5.3 NAD...

Considering, of course, that....that wouldn't be that far off from 7.1 as here, because I don't have to worry about Ethernet, because Duos don't have Ethernet. Well I do, but the UltraDock stuff is about 150K, which is prohibitive.

EDIT3: Guess so. Even the stock 7.1.1 that came on the Duo 230 "mary xxxxxxx's macintosh" hard drive kicks back an error trying to mount a 9.2.2 volume. Fortunately I can go the other way, and the LocalTalk to Ethernet adaptor works over a router. ++++

[Dennis Nedry]

I compared the System 7.5 Disk Tools to the System 7.5 Network Access. The network access system file is the same as the disk tools system file, with several extra resources:

'AINI' (all)
'atlk' (all)
'drvr' (all)
'DRVR' 9, 10, 40, 126, 127
'ecf2' (all)
'ecfg' (all)
'enet' (all)
'ICN#' -16411, -3978, -3977
'ics#' -3980, -3978, -3977
'iopc' (all)
'lmgr' (all)
'ltlk' (all)
'STR ' -8192
'STR#' -16503, -16411

and then both 'VERS' resources are modified to reflect the version.

These extra resources are NOT the same as the ones in the full System 7.5 system file. I would recommend adding these resources directly from the 7.5 Network Access disk to the system file of the 7.5.3 Disk Tools disk and see what happens. There are several revisions of 7.5.3 disk tools disks, so I'm not sure if all of them are Power Mac bootable. It seems like they have different size System files too, so you could try a few of them to find the smallest one that's bootable. It might still be too big after this, but you could probably find some other things you can chip away to make room too.

If this is more than a curiosity, a quick option is to just use a CD-ROM or external hard drive with the full System 7.5.3 installed. That's nowhere near as cool though.

There are some techniques out there to write beyond the capacity of a floppy disk, I'm not sure if that works on Macs or not but Microsoft was known to do this with Windows installer floppies. It saved disks and made them hard to copy - that was awesome for them.

[Mk.558]

Well I could use 1430K FREE but that is sort of a ho-hum compared to just making disk images. When I made the public SSW 6 NADS, but 1440K and 800K versions, I made them all on disk. Didn't even use a floppy at all.

But yeah I'll see if I can do that resource stuff. Would there be any additions to the 7.5 NAD over a regular 7.5 install to the data fork? ResCompare can see both forks but identifying them is a chore.

In the meantime, I have to recap two 2300c logic boards, and two 2300c display boards.

It would help to remove useless addons like Balloon help, which isn't needed, color PICTs and what not. Anything to trim it down to 1.3MB with about 15KB left.

Might have to make versions with various enablers. Bullocks. That means even more space has to be trimmed.

As far as using an external CD...you got me on that one, but anybody can cook one of those up Plus, those LED laser diodes burn out...nice to have an alternative. Furthermore, if some lad picked up a 5300cs with only an internal drive and a PhoneNET adaptor, it'd be nice to have something they could hook up to.

But rest assured, there won't be enough room for MacTCP or EtherTalk. There's barely enough on 7.1!

[Dennis Nedry]

Would there be any additions to the 7.5 NAD over a regular 7.5 install to the data fork? ResCompare can see both forks but identifying them is a chore.

The 7.5 NAD's system file and the normal 7.5 system file are different animals entirely in the resource fork. I didn't even look at the data fork. If you can trim a normal system down enough, that could be the best solution, but it seems like a long shot to start swapping resources around from floppy to full system. This is why, if it comes to this, I suggest starting from a 7.5.3 disk tools disk and make changes based on the differences between the system 7.5 disk tools and NAD systems. It would not especially surprise me if you could just use the Finder from the 7.5 NAD with your modded 7.5.3 disk tools system file.

I'm not sure if these disks are bootable from a RAM disk - I don't recall ever trying. They certainly won't boot from a hard drive. That could make development tricky. If you have to develop on floppies, you might get away with swapping in a very small application, renamed "Finder" with the Finder to save space. It should then boot and launch that program. with no Finder necessary.

Another possibility that I have never tried is to put the System 7.5.3 NAD-in-development system folder on an HD 20 (non-SCSI) and boot from it on a Mac Plus. The HD 20 may appear to be a floppy drive to the 7.5.3 disk tools system, and 7.5.3 happens to be the newest OS that will boot on that setup.

[Mk.558]

I got the 7.5.3 Disk Tools 2 to boot off the RAM disk. It popped a DLOG saying that this system software was meant to run off a floppy disk. I shrugged and pressed Okay and it was business as usual.

That was last week. Today I swapped resources from the 7.5NAD that were different to the 7.5.3 DT System, swapped the Finder from the 7.5NAD and fed it in. Popped an error saying that I need to use the Installer to update to a newer version of system software.

The identifiable resources that are missing on the 7.5.3DT that are present on the 7.5NAD, when viewed in ResEdit, are the following:

Code: Select all

AINI, atlk, BNDL, cmtb, ctb, drvr, ecf2, ecfg, enet, fovr, GDEF, gnld, gnth, iopc, lmgr, ltlk, PAT#, ppt#, and sfvr

"atlk, drvr, ltlk, ecfg, enet" all sound like possible candidates for what we need. We don't need to swap over useless content from the 7.5NAD that is inherent to the System binary, but instead the networking addons. (All of this assumes that it'll work just swapped straight over*.) Part of the problem is that some resources are compressed, making it mandatory to swap resources with ResCompare because ResEdit can't recompress them.

ResCompare does identify many other STR#s and what not that is different than the 7.5.3DT version. Some of that I'm worried about, other things I am not. For instance, if the STR# is for kicking networking error box text, we need that.

I'll have to spend some more time on it. Certainly however, I'll also have to do likewise with the 7.5.3 Disk Tools 1, as that is the 680x0 version, the Disk Tools 2 is what I'm working with now because that...is what my 2300cTB is...PPC.

Once it is done though, it should be good disk image to have on hand. Could I call up some of the more experienced foot soldiers out there to lend a hand?

*: If that doesn't work, I do have a certain idea in mind that COULD be used as a last resort...

[Mk.558]

'AINI' (all)
'atlk' (all)
'drvr' (all)
'DRVR' 9, 10, 40, 126, 127
'ecf2' (all)
'ecfg' (all)
'enet' (all)
'ICN#' -16411, -3978, -3977
'ics#' -3980, -3978, -3977
'iopc' (all)
'lmgr' (all)
'ltlk' (all)
'STR ' -8192
'STR#' -16503, -16411

Done.

System returns a bus error when loading AppleShare.

Edit: Excellent: http://developer.apple.com/legacy/mac/l ... erence.pdf

Appendix C gives a list of some standard resources and what they are for.

[Mk.558]

Here is the "remainder" of resources that did not get "changed" after copying over the above resources into the 7.5.3 binary:



Red means a resource that will be deleted; Blue means a resource that will be changed or updated; and Green means a resource that will be added from the update to the master. There are about 3 "screen's worth" of resources, I think I will make thus three sub-modified variants with one of each "screen's worth" and try to narrow it down. Identify one "screen" as working, we'll split that up and figure what exact resources are needed.

I was browsing on everymac.com's site, and this proposed 7.5.3 NAD will cover nearly every Mac from the Plus to I believe all 1996 models and a few 1997 models. The '97 models require 7.6, which I'm not going to do because those all are going to be too big and "different". And they usually have CD drives.

As for my "other idea" it involved just taking a Disk Tools disk and pulling out the disk tools. Then putting in Memory and Startup Disk with compressed networking stuff. You'd create a RAM Disk with Memory, restart, unpack the payload, copy it all over, switch to it with Startup Disk, and reboot. Ta Da! My Duo can do that sort of thing, I don't know if the other Macs in the orchard can do that though.

[Dennis Nedry]

If you start up from the floppy, enable RAM disk, and restart again from the floppy to mount the RAM disk, you are then free to eject the startup floppy even with the RAM disk still empty and swap as many additional non-startup floppies as necessary to get everything you need into the RAM disk.

If there are other resource types that are not listed in that document, it is possible that Resorcerer has more resource types defined.

[uniserver]

Is there any reason, what Dennis just said won't work? I think it would work!

[uniserver]

also what keeps a ramdisk active when powered off (with a apple laptop) the laptop battery or the pram battery?

or in the desktop case, i would assume anything with soft power, would be able to keep the ram disk active when powered down.

[Cory5412]

Have you considered just grabbing this?

http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Su ... .5.sea.bin

Info about what's on this image: http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Su ... sk_7.5.txt

[Mk.558]

Cory:

Mainly because Apple's 7.5NAD is pretty much for machines that spec a minimum of 7.5 (like the LC580). All the PPC machines I looked at on everymac.com required 7.5.3 minimum (or 7.5.2).

My PowerBook Duo 2300cTB and 230/100 do not boot that disk. They report version too old. 7.5 vs 7.5.3.

uniserver: The laptop battery. Memory contents are preserved in memory, with a small power draw. Same thing as sleep.

[techknight]

There are some techniques out there to write beyond the capacity of a floppy disk, I'm not sure if that works on Macs or not but Microsoft was known to do this with Windows installer floppies. It saved disks and made them hard to copy - that was awesome for them.

Yea, and I remember that. It was called the 1.68MB DMF format, and you had to use shareware GRDUW Disk Utility to format those, and copy/rip those.

I loved that utility as it allowed me to make Win95B and Win95C floppy installs so i could put them on my PS/2 back in the day. Boy, those were the days. It would also do a weird 1.78mb format as well squeezing as many sectors as it possibly can per track. It was great for those disks that had files just slightly too big to fit, and you didnt feel like using a file split utility. But, it came with its drawbacks, and one was reliability. Squeezing that amount of capacity had issues with bad/weak sectors sometimes.

And MS hasnt changed a bit, they still do those weird formats with their game consoles.

[Mk.558]

I've always been curious why 1.44 FDDs and Sony 1.44MB disk drives often say "2MB" on them. 2MB is 2048K, which would have been quite nice to have...

EDIT: Doing that 1.78MB stuff would be just the ticket for flopticals...oh wait they did to that

[jongleur]

I've always been curious why 1.44 FDDs and Sony 1.44MB disk drives often say "2MB" on them. 2MB is 2048K, which would have been quite nice to have...

EDIT: Doing that 1.78MB stuff would be just the ticket for flopticals...oh wait they did to that

2MB I believe, was the "unformatted" capacity of the 1.44MB. So 2MB is a totally useless value, as opposed to the mearly annoying "metric" vs binary HDD sizes.

[Cory5412]

Ah, I missed that bit.

Any reason why a boot CD can't be used with a PowerPC or very late '040 machine? The 580 and most PowerPCs that are from 1994 and newer have CD-ROM drives. Plus, I know a lot of us have one or two externals and the necessary cables + termination equipment to hook said external to any given machine we're using.

At 1440k for a floppy, it's not like you're going to be doing too terribly much with the remaining space once you get 7.5.3 and any necessary network access stuff on there. (Presumably you'd want localtalk and ethertalk, and if I were making a wish-list, it would have an AppleShare over IP client as well, so I could access shares on a netatalk, Mac OS X, or Windows NT/2000/2003 server without worrying about the complete network infrastructure.

[Charlieman]

Any reason why a boot CD can't be used with a PowerPC or very late '040 machine?

You may, but anything that needs to write to the boot disk may fail. Try booting from CD and connecting to an AppleShare server.

[Mk.558]

I'm beginning to believe I'm going to have to find room for the Memory/Startup Disk CDEVs.

If someone has 16MB of RAM, that's more than enough to load a RAM disk and have some working space. Freeing up the FDD slot is a real priority, since System 6 was the last OS to work fine off a single floppy slot (sort of). System 7.0 is so bad it's not even funny...like 7-8 times swapping just to mount the 2nd disk on the desktop.

Last time I had some time to work on this, ResCompare crashed before it got to the gpch resources. I'll have to move down the line manually to figure what resource is causing the hiccup. Memory? Nah fixed that by increasing its allocation from 2048K which was the Preferred size it suggested to 8192K. If that's not enough the iBook has 640MB RAM in it, 40 of which is used, so figure 590 to spare

Kinda funny because when I dumped all the resources in one go the first time, which by my ignorance just made 7.5.3 System into a 7.5 whole and through, it didn't crash at all. tsk

You won't be able to fit an AppleShare over IP client in. In fact, I'm not aware of such an application. I could also work on a bootable CD image which is meant to be dumped into a RAM disk. Should be able to make such a thing fiddling with this thing and cram it all into ...say, 8MB?

Anything New-World (aka G3) is going to be on your own...

[Mk.558]

YEEE HAWWW

I tried transferring all the resources that don't exist on the 7.5NAD to the 7.5.3DT, and well, it crashes...and when I applied everything as well as I could, it takes up too much space. grrrr

Soooo I found some hints on Google about some Aladdin Resource Compression Toolkit. Huh. Further google-foo turned up LZWRes from umich.edu's Mac archive...which ---- is a resource compression scheme which *glances at the readme* uses the LZW scheme.

What we'll do next is that we'll use the 7.5.3 Disk Tools System folder as a host, and we'll use the 7.5.3 CD Install to add File Sharing capabilities to it. Then we'll trash the fat, figure out what changed in ResCompare and compress the differences.

*sighs deeply*

EDIT: A bit ago I mounted a RAM disk and used the CD Install to "install" the Memory and Startup control panels. It handily included a System file that was 61k with some resources. Sooo that means I'll see that IF I have enough room left, I may be able to cram that stuff in. I'll need some testers.

[Dennis Nedry]

I'm sorry to hear that transferring the 7.5 NAD resources into the 7.5.3 DT didn't work for you. Anything is worth exploring at this point.

The System 7.5 NAD's extra resources are not the same as the respective resources in the full system 7.5. So using the 7.5.3 installer on top of the 7.5.3 disk tools disk is not similar to the method that Apple used to make the 7.5 NAD. It's possible that the 7.5 NAD's extra resources are from an older system or maybe they were even created specifically for the NAD disk. Maybe it was space, maybe something else, but I'm sure they had a good reason.

An alternate approach would be to take the 7.5 NAD and systematically update it towards 7.5.3 by replacing its resources from the 7.5.3 DT a little at a time, trying to keep it bootable and keep the networking going. At some point along the line, it may turn into some sort of PPC-bootable hybrid disk, part 7.5, part 7.5.3.

[Mk.558]

Well progress has stalled because opening the Network control panel on even a Minimal Install of 7.5.3 freezes the computer.

I'll have to wait until I get my SE/30 logic boards back.

I am convinced there is a way to do it, but it won't be exactly "easy". It doesn't help that the devs of the System back then are gone for good, and any innate knowledge required to make such a thing is going to be as dust in the wind. I still have no idea why they didn't build two disks, a 7.5.3 PPC and a 7.5.3 68K. I mean 7.5 works for all the 68Ks, but so does System 6, and System 6 is WAY better in such an application. But nearly all the PPCs require 7.5.3+, so 7.5 is pointless. Unless, of course, you have an '040, as '040s don't run System 6.

The way I'll try it out next time is with the SE/30, installing onto a RAM disk a Minimal Install for this Mac. The fun part lies in figuring out what exact extensions are needed, and compressing them. LZWRes can do that, but as resources. We don't have the know-how to integrate extensions into the System itself, then compress them. With resource compression, the compressed data is stored on disk, but decompressed into memory and retained there, perfect for such FDs.