Installing Classic OS 9 apps under OSX 10.4

[spiceyokooko]

Hey guys

I ran across a problem when copying OS 9 applications across to run in classic mode under OSX 10.4 in the sense that the system simply wouldn't recognise either the documents of the Applications. They were just seen as 'generic' files. Even when I gave the documents the correct .extension the system still wouldn't recognise them.

The solution to this as I understand it, is to simply install the applications from the original disks, which is fine for some of the applications but not so for some of the others as I simply don't have the originals or they're on floppy disk.

Is the answer to copy them across in 'target disk' mode or is there some other work around I don't know about?

Cheers!

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Methinks this application is yet another siren call of the venerable Zip Drive, though burning your installer floppies to a CD really ought to work, or so I would think.
This also leads me to the question of which CatPoo rev would be the last to adequately support Classic Mode.

[spiceyokooko]

Trash

I really do need to find and answer to this at some point because I need to dispose of all my machines (moving house can't take them with me) that will boot into OS 9, as I have a fair amount of old legacy software I want to continue using.

My initial plan was to run an Apple G4 Powerbook 1.67 in two partitions with OSX 10.5 on one side and OSX 10.4/classic OS 9 on the other so I could switch between them. In the end I decided to simply buy another G4 Powerbook 1.67 and run OSX 10.5 on one and OSX 10.4/OS 9.0 on the other and switch between them. But I still need to find a solution to those applications not being recognised under OSX 10.4/OS 9 as it's limiting what OS 9 applications I can run on it.

I did consider moving up to a more recent intel Macbook Pro (and keep the G4 Powerbook for sole OSX 10.4/OS 9 use) but I decided against it because 1/ I didn't really want to drop that much money on one as it's not really a high priority, 2/ It would also have meant either changing my current 20" cinema display to one that would plug into the new Macbook pro and get an adapter for the G4 or simply buying an adapter for the new Macbook Pro and use the existing one.

I'm beginning to wonder whether it might simply be easier to sell the second G4 Powerbook and buy the last of the G4 Powerbook Titaniums that can boot OS 9.0, but then I may not be able to use that with my current monitor!

Whichever way I go there always seems to be some obstacle or other in the way!

Cheers!

[theos911]

It seems that the applications have lost their data fork. How did you copy them?

[spiceyokooko]

From memory the files were copied over from an external USB Hard Drive. Prior to that they were on an Apple Powermac G4 MDD 1.25 Ghz and some came over from a Power Macintosh 9600.

Cheers!

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Apple LOVES these obstacles, as well as the Application Developers and Peripherals Manufacturers, I might add.
Newer Hardware, Software and Peripherals just have to be better . . . right?

Good luck in slimming down the collection for your move. I'm lucky, I'm just looking for the fastest way to run Classic Mode on the Fastest MDD with the highest CatPoo rev. practicable that may give me USB 2 by running behind the OSX Wizard's Curtain, leaving me happily frolicking in my dreamworld of 9.2.2 OZ!

I may have that symbology a bit mixed up . . . it's the Wicked Witch of the West and her Flying Monkeys (Cupertino's CatPoo Revs.) that give myself and my primary apps the heebie-jeebies. Glinda would be in support of the Wizardly Machinations behind the curtain that just might give me USB2 under 9.2.2 in Classic Mode!

[theos911]

Was this external HDD formatted as HFS/+ or FAT?

[basalgangster]

I suppose you have already tried rebuilding the classic desktop. In the preference panel for the classic environment, start classic then go to advanced and click rebuild desktop.

[ClassicHasClass]

What Theo said. If the external hard disk was not HFS/HFS+, you may have lost the resource fork. I've copied lots of OS 9 applications from my OS 9 MDD to my 10.4 G5 and they work just fine (assuming they didn't need to install some weird extension or CDEV, in which case I just run the installer in Classic).

[spiceyokooko]

Thanks for all your thoughts and suggestions.

I never really thought much about the formatting on the external USB drive, but it could certainly be the cause if it wasn't formatted as a HFS volume.

Fortunately I have a USB to SCSI converter which I could use to hook up an external SCSI drive (which is a known HFS volume) and copy them across from that. Another thought might be to simply compress the files into a stuffit SEA and copy them across like that - that should keep the resource fork intact.

I'll do some experimentation I think and report back on how I get on.

Cheers!

[Cory5412]

As has been suggested, I suspect it's the external USB disk. Most of them start their lives with FAT32 formatting, because everything under the sun will read and write from FAT32.

As far as the last big cat with Classic mode support, 10.4 is the way to go. If you have a nice high-end PowerPC laptop like the 1.67GHz G4, there's no reason to revert it to something lower (and honestly, it may have shipped with 10.4.something anyway.) In fact, if having an older PowerBook (such as any Titanium PowerBook) around for Mac OS 9 apps is a possibility, what I would suggest is that you use one machine (such as a TiBook) for Mac OS 9, and install Leopard/10.5 on the faster PowerBook. The only exception here is if performance is critical, but I've found that if you have an app that is noticeably faster on a 1.67GHz PowerBook than a 1.0, you should either find an OS X version of that app, or buy a faster OS 9 desktop, because it will not work very well in Classic Mode anyway.

(This may just be oddities with stuff I've tried, such as PageMaker 6.5, but in my experience, Classic Mode was great as a stop-gap, but very very bad as a long term solution.)

[ianj]

I'm going to take this opportunity to say that Classic Mode was really not great and should not be relied upon. It usually didn't fail on me the few times I tried it, but it's conceptually messy and compatibility isn't perfect. I suspect Classic Mode was primarily targeted at home users who had non-critical things that they wanted to run without dual-booting; professional environments just stayed on OS 9 until they got native OS X versions of the software they depended on. Even within the past six months, I've seen a place of business with medical imaging software running in Mac OS 9 on a couple of workstations.

If you're moving house and have to bail on all your existing OS 9-bootable machines, I'd strongly suggest just picking up something OS 9-bootable (if space is a concern, perhaps a laptop to run in lid-closed mode?) after you get settled in where you're going. Ten years ago when PowerPC Macs had prices befitting new or slightly-used computers, it might be a legitimate concern to tough it out with Classic Mode in 10.4, but in 2012, when these Macs are being given away, it would be best to run OS 9 standalone.

As for Apple loving these "obstacles," yes, they always have, because it is good for them and their customers. Many common criticisms of WIndows stem from Microsoft's willingness to hamstring the operating system in various ways for the sake of allowing corporate IT departments to not upgrade or replace their software. Microsoft's bread and butter is in the business world, so it makes sense for them to do this. Apple has no such imperative, so they make their developers keep up, and it goes a long way towards explaining why their consumer products are generally better than everyone else's. Contriving bizarre scatological Wizard of Oz-derived fantasies does nothing to disprove this reality.

[ClassicHasClass]

And then there's SheepShaver. A lovely hack when it's compatible, which is annoyingly infrequent.

On the other hand, MacsBug will work in Classic, which delighted me to no end. I could even pull up the debugger in Classic (appearing as a window with no title bar as 10.4 merrily multitasked everything else around it). But Classic for me is merely a convenience.

[spiceyokooko]

Hey Cory thanks for your thoughts on this.

I do agree with what you're saying here and I did seriously consider getting an Apple Powerbook G4 Titanium 1.0Ghz, which is the the last G4 Powerbook that can boot natively into OS 9.0 as you mentioned in your post.

The problem with that (and the reason I ultimately decided not to get one) was the minimum software requirement of the Apple 20 inch Cinema display I use which needs a minimum of OSX 10.2 to run. If I can't run the Titanium with the Cinema display, I might as well continue using my existing G3 Powerbook bronze keyboard as a stand alone OS 9 machine as I've done in the past.

I do agree with your view (and ians's point) that it's best to get the fastest machine that will run OS 9 and the best machine to run OSX, probably for me an Intel Macbook Pro, the problem is, getting them to work with the cinema display.

I have now successfully installed some of the OS 9 software I wasn't able to use due to them not being recognised by simply copying them across from a known good HFS volume onto the second Powerbook G4 (the one I'm on now). For the time being I will simply run the two Powerbook G4's alongside each other alternating between the 10.5.8 and 10.4.11/OS 9 machines whenever I need to access the OS 9 applications.

That seems a reasonable compromise at the moment as I can use both the Cinema Display, keyboard and mouse with both laptops.

Many thanks to everyone for their help and advice.

Cheers!

[ianj]

Doesn't that display only run at 1680x1050? What about it requires OS X 10.2 to run? I've definitely used Mac OS 9 at that resolution before. What would prevent you from using it with an Intel Mac?

If there is actually something about this display that makes it compatible only with a narrow range of Macs, I'd get another display because that just sounds like all kinds of trouble. I would be surprised if there was, though. Unless it has an ADC connector, it should just be a normal LCD monitor, and if it does have an ADC connector, the adapters aren't hard to get.

[Bunsen]

Apple 20 inch Cinema display I use which needs a minimum of OSX 10.2 to run.

This monitor?

While it does say there (and presumably somewhere on apple.com) that it requires 10.2.8, I too have a hard time understanding how or why. Have you ever used it, for example, on a PC, or under BootCamp/Windows?