Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby avw » 08 Feb 2010, 08:34

Bunsen wrote: The fastest OS 9 booting machines were the dual 1.25GHz 2002 FW400 MDD, or the "reissue" 2003 FW400 single 1.25GHz MDD


What are the exact differences between that two motherboards (except that the 2003 FW400 needs a installed X to boot native into 9)? Everymac.com and others have no answers for me.

The advice to overclock a original Apple 1,42 Ghz seems to be good. I found several pages with exact informations. Should often work up to 1,8 GHz.

About Ram-disk, the Gigabyte i-RAM is availaible for less than Euro 200 including RAM. And that should be a verry well 4GB harddisc for OS 9 and scratch partition! Ever seen a Oldworld machine booting from RAM-disk? That rocks!
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby ClassicHasClass » 09 Feb 2010, 02:34

I posted this over at PPCMLA, but since we're talking about it here too, I got one of the Sonnet dual 1.8s (1833MHz 7447A) over the weekend. Not cheap. But it sure is zippy! Virtual PC, for example, runs at a howling pace.

Classilla doesn't build a great deal faster, but admittedly its compilation is largely diskbound and the step processing is driven by Apple Events, which are slow.

With that, this system has a Radeon 9000 Pro, the dual 1.8s, 2GB RAM (1.5GB in OS 9) and of course the 167MHz bus, 2MB L3, etc. So that's definitely a big bruiser for the old OS.
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby johnklos » 09 Feb 2010, 04:21

I have a dual 1.8 GHz (1833 MHz) 7447a Sonnet card in an Xserve with 167 MHz bus and 2 gigs - it'll never see OS 9, but it runs OS X very well. It's actually pushed in excess of 500mbps of traffic with 500 Apache daemons, which is much more than I imagined it'd be able to do.

Recently I got a single processor 1.7 GHz (1733 MHz) 7448 for a Quicksilver primarily because of the 1 meg of CPU speed L2 cache (as opposed to 512k in the 7447a), and between that and a fast 1 TB SATA drive on the IDE bus (SATA-IDE adapter), it's noticeably faster at compiling than another 1.8 GHz 7447a system.
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby ClassicHasClass » 09 Feb 2010, 06:12

Yeah, cache is so important on those G4s because of the system bus. I notice that POWER7 is strongly emphasizing cache as well, which means that as much as things change they stay the same in POWER-land.
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby MacJunky » 09 Feb 2010, 08:25

Any high end workstation/server class CPU has lots of cache compared to normal desktop/consumer variants.
Nothing new there.
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby ClassicHasClass » 09 Feb 2010, 17:32

Sure, and Tukwila is the same way. But Power6 and Power7 both really get starved for data quickly if their caches aren't full, and take a bigger penalty than other architectures in those situations. Look at what TurboCore does to the Power7: it's not just a GHz increase, it takes over even more of the cache since the number of cores in flight is reduced.

IBM is bragging that even the slowest Power7 outpaces a 5GHz Power6, though I imagine that is workload dependent:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/08 ... page2.html
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby Unknown_K » 09 Feb 2010, 18:22

MacJunky wrote:Any high end workstation/server class CPU has lots of cache compared to normal desktop/consumer variants.
Nothing new there.


Anything involving massive processing of large chunks of DATA is helped by cache.

People used to love the old PPro 200's with 1MB of cache at the core CPU speed for database and other data intensive apps.
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby ppuskari » 09 Feb 2010, 23:32

I actually still have 4 Compaq 5000 units onlined at the house. Even though they are Quad PPro 200mhz they are all 1meg cache per chip. The memory buss gets saturated before the 4th proc really can be flexed but that was known even way back in 1997 or so.

I run Ubuntu Linux on 2 of them once finally figuring out the correct memmap= line to get them to boot without a kernel panic. The other 2 are running Windows 2000. Been running solid for years now. Keeps the basement warm in the winter too. Today they are my testing vmware farm using vmware server 2.0 under the Ubuntu and Win2k. All of them have the full 4Gig of ram in them and 5 9.3 Gig hd's on the array.
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby H3NRY » 10 Feb 2010, 06:36

I presume the 1.5GB RAM limit in OS9 is why my Sawtooth (AGP graphics G4) with 2GB RAM installed shows Built-in Memory 1.99GB; VM Off; Largest Unused Block 1.45GB; and MacOS using 5548MB? The OS just walls off the "extra" 512 MB? Anyhow, it runs.

Specs: 1.2 GHz PLX G4 with 2 MB level 2 cache, which helps with the 100 MHz system buss, 160 GB and 500 GB ATA drives on the internal controller, a pair of 1TB Barracudas on a PCI SATA card, and ATI Radeon 9700. Snappy machine in OS 9.2.2 and OS 10.4.11. With MacOS ROM 9.5.1, it has no trouble with large hard disks. It's my fastest OS 9 machine, beating the Cube which has an NV FX6200 GPU which is a dog under OS 9.
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby LCGuy » 10 Feb 2010, 14:34

Yep, you're right - no matter what you do, Mac OS 9 and below simply cannot address any more than 1.5GB of RAM, its a limitation built into the OS, and short of rewriting the Mac OS (which Apple already did with Mac OS X), there's nothing that can be done about it. Like it matters anyway - 1.5GB is heaps, and I do mean heaps for OS 9.
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby ClassicHasClass » 10 Feb 2010, 16:06

Do the ATI OS 9 drivers properly support the 9700? I thought the 9200 (RV250) was the last card officially supported by ATI for OS 9, but I would be delighted to be wrong.
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby avw » 10 Feb 2010, 21:27

ClassicHasClass wrote:Do the ATI OS 9 drivers properly support the 9700? I thought the 9200 (RV250) was the last card officially supported by ATI for OS 9, but I would be delighted to be wrong.

No 3d support anymore. That´s why the G-force is still the fastest OS 9 card in existance.
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby H3NRY » 10 Feb 2010, 21:32

I don't know if it is "properly" supported, but it works for me. All resolutions and color depths are available, and 2D seems pretty fast. I don't run 3D games, so I can't say whether that's accelerated or not. The ATI extensions load except there was one I had to trash to get the system to boot. Apple System Profiler reports it as Card Model ATY, R350; Card ROM# 113-A07525-130. It's an AGP Radeon 9700 Pro 128MB flashed for Mac.
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby avw » 10 Feb 2010, 21:33

LCGuy wrote: which Apple already did with Mac OS X


You know that´s not true ;) Keith Stattenfield and his team did a lot of work at OS 9 already, until Steve Jobs forced them to abandon it (and never release it) and go on with his former NeXT, ...

X is an improved NeXT but not a improved MacOS!
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby MacJunky » 10 Feb 2010, 22:58

As far as I know Macs never got the 9700 and the ones flashed were flashed with modded 9800 ROMs. Macs did get the 9600 but it did not go well with OS 9 either.
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby ClassicHasClass » 11 Feb 2010, 00:26

avw wrote:
ClassicHasClass wrote:Do the ATI OS 9 drivers properly support the 9700? I thought the 9200 (RV250) was the last card officially supported by ATI for OS 9, but I would be delighted to be wrong.

No 3d support anymore. That´s why the G-force is still the fastest OS 9 card in existance.


That's what I thought. Too bad, an RV3x0 card would have been nice.
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby Tron » 19 Feb 2010, 21:33

ClassicHasClass said:

" I posted this over at PPCMLA, but since we're talking about it here too, I got one of the Sonnet dual 1.8s (1833MHz 7447A) over the weekend. Not cheap. But it sure is zippy! Virtual PC, for example, runs at a howling pace.

Classilla doesn't build a great deal faster, but admittedly its compilation is largely diskbound and the step processing is driven by Apple Events, which are slow.

With that, this system has a Radeon 9000 Pro, the dual 1.8s, 2GB RAM (1.5GB in OS 9) and of course the 167MHz bus, 2MB L3, etc. So that's definitely a big bruiser for the old OS. "

I'm very intereted in to know how much speedy is your MDD whith Sonnet 1833MHz 7447A than my MDD single overclocked to 1.667Mhz.
Can you put please your Cinebench 2003 test results?

Thats mine G4 MDD 1.667Ghz Single:

Cinebench 2003
Rendering 1 CPU 154
Rendering 2 CPU ----
C4D Shading 189
OpenGl SW-L 498
OpenGl HW-L 486

Thanks.
Sorry for my English.
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby ClassicHasClass » 20 Feb 2010, 01:00

A cursory search for Cinebench 2003 was unsuccessful. Do you have a link? It has to be OS 9, because this machine obviously no longer has OS X.
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby Tron » 20 Feb 2010, 01:40

This is a link of the Mac version.

http://personal2.redestb.es/emilioemilio/CINEBENCH 2003.sit

It works on Mac Os 9 and Mac Os X.
I'm only interested on the Mac Os 9 results.
Thanks.
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby ClassicHasClass » 20 Feb 2010, 02:16

Just downloaded it. StuffIt Expander gave me a funny error about "unable to verify resource fork of Cinebench 2003" and when I started it, it bombed to MacsBug with an illegal instruction. :o The archive doesn't *seem* corrupt and the resource fork looks okay, but it definitely won't run on this machine. Do you have another one you want to try to compare against?

edit: Actually, now that I examine it, it does look like a corrupt archive ... maybe binhex it as a safety measure?
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby Tron » 20 Feb 2010, 12:58

Sorry. I don't know where is the error.
In any case, please try this other. It seems to work.

http://personal2.redestb.es/emilioemilio/CINEBENCH 2003.img.hqx

Thanx
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby CJ_Miller » 20 Feb 2010, 15:17

Hi all - I have been away for a couple of years, but am back at my old Mac antics.

Last week I bought what looks like the fastest PowerBook, a 1GHz Titanium. These machines appear to be finicky but this one looks quite good. It was cheapish. Only problem was that the audio out doesn't work at all. That kind of sucks because I mostly do audio and video work. I figured it wasn't too bad, since I like my quiet firewire audio interface. Then I was horrified to discover that firewire didn't work either... I actually got it running by scrubbing the logic board with 90% isopropyl alcohol and letting it dry. Still no onboard audio but now the firewire works. Going to max the RAM. I replaced the 60 GB stock drive which was noisy and very slow with a 160 GB Seagate which is silent and quite fast. When I can afford a second 1 GHz TiBook I am going to try to fix the audio on here - I suspect it's the output opamps.

My main machine for years has been my MDD G4. I bought a partial MDD, and a partial 1.42 GHz FW800 machine and combined them with the 167 MHz FW400 logic board. Has anybody used XServe CPUs in these? I have heard that they are somehow based on the MDD logic board. 1.33 GHz XServe CPUs seem to be cheaper and easier to find than the 1.42. It's got 1.75GB of RAM, GeForce Ti 4600, and Stealth serial port. It is decent in MacOS 10.4.11 but screams in 9.2.2. A few things to look out for: it is picky what version of the 9.2.2 system it uses. It needs one of the later 2002-2003 versions which were distributed with macs on the gray discs. This means it needs an OS X install first and then browse to the hidden cd folder "images", I think it's called classicbasic or some such thing. Also, these machines run damn hot. They have noisy fans which annoy, and they run hot besides. Mine averaged around 140-160 degrees Fahrenheit! It ran flawlessly for about five years, but then I put it away for a couple of months, and once I brought it out again it just kernel panics (X) or hangs (9). It broke from lack of use? Seems to have a serious bus problem now.

Consider that there is the fastest an OS 9 mac can be, and the fastest an OS 9 mac can be without needing special version of the OS and drivers. For instance, an MDD, eMac, or TiBook DVI won't run with a regular retail version of 9. It might require some fiddling and be slightly less convenient than running the next fastest, probably a Quicksilver.

Off to try to fix my MDD...
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby ClassicHasClass » 22 Feb 2010, 19:29

Sorry for the lag, I was away from my workstations this weekend. The second image you posted, Tron, works fine. Here are the numbers:

CINEBENCH 2003 v1
****************************************************

Tester : CHC

Processor : G4 7447A
MHz : 1833
Number of CPUs : 2
Operating System : OS 9.2.2

Graphics Card : Radeon 9000 Pro 128MB
Resolution : 1920x1080
Color Depth : Millions

****************************************************

Rendering (Single CPU): 163 CB-CPU
Rendering (Multiple CPU): 309 CB-CPU

Multiprocessor Speedup: 1.89

Shading (CINEMA 4D) : 181 CB-GFX
Shading (OpenGL Software Lighting) : 473 CB-GFX
Shading (OpenGL Hardware Lighting) : 474 CB-GFX

OpenGL Speedup: 2.62

****************************************************

It's interesting that the Shading was a hair slower. However, the rendering results are what I would have expected for a small bump in MHz (1667 -> 1833) with everything else being equal (MDD architecture and bus). What graphics card is in your overclocked MDD?
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby Quadraman » 23 Feb 2010, 06:56

Ummm...there were CPU upgrades for MDD/Xserve

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Sonnet%2 ... /XG4D1800/

That's the Sonnet one and I am sure there was another I saw a while back, maybe by Newertech.
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Re: Assembling the Fastest OS 9 Machine

Postby ClassicHasClass » 23 Feb 2010, 20:27

Yup, the Sonnet dual 1.8 in my MDD is Xserve-compatible.
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