Run Mac OS 9 on a PM 6100?

[Theretrogamingroom]

I was debating on running Mac OS 9.1 on my Powermac 6100/66. Is that recommended? I imagine that it would be slow as molasses, even though I maxed out the ram to 72MB and have enough patience to not go insane.

[BGoins12]

I wouldn't recommend it. I'm running 9.1 on my 275MHz 5500/275, and it's a bit sluggish, even with 128 megs of ram.

[Theretrogamingroom]

I thought so. Is there any middle ground (Acceptable OS for the machine) higher than 7.6.1?

[zuiko21]

I like 8.6, I use it on my maxed-out (288M, 604e @ 233 MHz) 7500 (and on dad's too). But if you're relatively tight on RAM, you may try 8.1, at least is able to access HFS+ volumes

[Theretrogamingroom]

Quick Update: My setup currently boots in a little over 1:30 with no other programs installed. After a quick youtube search, I saw a video of a 6100 running 9 that booted in 2 minutes flat (With a bunch of Programs Installed). I imagine that mine would boot in about the same time if I were to install 9.1, plus I could get newer programs and do things better (if at all) than with 7.6. If I do this, I plan on installing a DVD player, getting on the internet and creating a dual monitor extended desktop setup (With upgraded hardware, of course). From what I see, it is a war between speed and usability, and I am still unsure of what to do. I am thinking of dual booting between the two OS's or installing 9, seeing if I like it and, if not, reinstalling 7.6. Right now, I have the best hardware that was available, (Excluding upgrades via the NuBus Slot) including the better CPU, Cache, Ram, etc, so if I was to install 9 I could at least see what the best hardware configuration would feel like.

Any more advise?

[ClassicHasClass]

Startup Doubler can help quite a bit. Or, find a G3 card.

[PowerPup]

I've been running Mac OS 9.0.4 and 9.1 smoothly on my PM6100 for years, up until the L2 cache on my G3 upgrade card stopped working. It still runs somewhat faster than the 66Mhz CPU, but boy did that 1MB cache make it fly. (Compare that to it's original 256k or a PII's 512k!) I'm also fortunate to have 2 sticks of 64MB of RAM, topping it at 136MB total.

Before the G3 card, I'm pretty sure I was running 8.1. Without any upgraded CPU/Cache, anything higher than 8.1 tends to just slow things down.

[Theretrogamingroom]

Well, I have a 256K Cache installed right now, although I might max that out too, depending on preformence. So far, these are my plans:

Install Mac OS 9 (If I find it suitable for the machine)
Replace Internal CD-ROM Drive with a DVD-RAM Drive
Connect to the Internet with a Twisted Ethernet Adapter
Buy a NuBus Riser Card for my Secondary Video Card*
Restore my Apple Audiovision 15AV Monitor for use
Install More Programs (Any recommendations?)

Possible Upgrades:

Install The Best Cache Card (1MB?)
Install Biggest Hard Drive Accepted
A G3 Upgrade Card (Would run better)
More Ram (What is the Unoffical Ceiling?)
Any other good upgrades (Suggestions?)

*: This is a High Power Video Card by the way. Are these good?

I can't wait to get this souped up! This will be my main Pre-G3 Machine (Unless I install that G3 Upgrade).

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

That's the "High Performance Video" Card, which is a misnomer, as it sets a very low bar. Any high end NuBus VidCard mops the floor with that severely VRAM starved excuse for a Video Card. The notion of a PDS VidCard is nice, but unrealized for all practical purposes.

To get out from under the horrible internal video overhead of the X100 series, combined with that "foot from the wall" connector/cable combo, was probably the only thing that made it seem practical or High Performance . . .

Get a G3 for the poor little thing if you're gonna hobble it with that VidCard.

[ClassicHasClass]

Seriously, install Startup Doubler. It can really improve bootup performance. All of my OS 9 machines have it.

[Theretrogamingroom]

@Trash80toHP_Mini: I will probably use it anyways just for the reason that I have no other machines that work with it (Plus, it will save time, money and trouble, as a good video card is not as big of a deal to me as simply having two of them. If I find it too bad, I will probably add some VRAM).

@ClassicHasClass: Thanks for the suggestion, I will give that a shot. Anyone else use this or know how much performance usually increases by?

[ClassicHasClass]

It varies depending on how many extensions and control panels you are loading (the more you are, the bigger the speed improvement), but in my experience once its cache is primed it improves startup time by about 30%.

[PowerPup]

Possible Upgrades:
More Ram (What is the Unofficial Ceiling?)
...

Probably safe to say 136MB is the Unofficial Ceiling. (2x64MB + 8MB) As I can't imagine it being able to hold 2 sticks of 128MB... (Did they even make 128MB 72pin RAM?)

[zuiko21]

AFAIK, 72-pin SIMMs have 12 address lines -- multiplexing rows and columns, as usual. That makes 24-bit, or maximum 16M words of 32-bit each => 64 MiB.

Install Biggest Hard Drive Accepted

May I suggest the Compaq/HP BD07285A25 (73 GB)? It's a Ultra-320 SCSI disk with SCA 80-pin connector, thus you'll need an (inexpensive) adapter (will it fit inside the 6100? I have been able to shoehorn one of these into a LC475).

But it's guaranteed to work in narrow mode (not every Ultra-320 does) and fully compatible with old Macs -- but make certain to have at least 7.6.1 (or better, 8.1+) in order to use large partitions. Plus, unlike most server drives, this 10000 rpm beast:

-Is unbelievably quiet.
-Runs relatively cool.
-Doesn't draw too much power (1.2A @ 5V, 0.8A @ 12V)

And it's fast like a bat out of hell -- data transfer rate will top at 5 MB/s with the 6100's SCSI chip, but the low access time (5-6 ms) will be a noticeable advantage in real world use.

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

@Trash80toHP_Mini: I will probably use it anyways just for the reason that I have no other machines that work with it (Plus, it will save time, money and trouble, as a good video card is not as big of a deal to me as simply having two of them. If I find it too bad, I will probably add some VRAM).

I have several of these cards, some with the full loadout of VRAM, so why wait? PM me if interested and I'll see if I have a third set of sticks for you.

I'm going to be using mine in the 6100 as well and in a bracket hacked into my Radius 81/110/G3 as a bonus VidCard if there are enough PseudoSlot IDs to go around for three NuBus Cards along with the LPV!
____________________________________________________________________________________________

Thanks for that recommendation, Z! Now I know what to keep my eyes peeled for on CL/eBay!

I'll assume they should work in a two drive RAID configuration in my Radius VideoVision Array off the Rocket/SCSI II DaughterCard Combo?

I'll have to do a lot of small partitions as the Rocket will only do 7.0.1 and 7.1.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

I love how this kind of information pops up with regularity in tangential discussions around here.

[trag]

Actually, in its day, and for all the Apple NuBus machines, the HPV card was extremely high performance.

The only NuBus video cards that give it any competition at all were the $3000 video cards such as the Radius Thunder IV GX (24/GT) and the Villagetronics MacPicasso 340 (not the 320), also sold by Sonnet. Possibly something from Raster Ops, but I never kept track of their models.

Kaye Yum and I tested this very extensively over on powerwatch.com back in the day.

The high end NuBus cards were a little better in some of the tasks which could benefit from accelerated QuickDraw operations. For anything which required throwing frames up on the screen at a high rate (cough, Marathon, cough), the HPV card was the hands down winner.

JT, I think you may be confusing the HPV card with the AV card or the logic board video in the NuBus Macs. The AV card and the logic board video were very pedestrian.

Also, note that there was a 2MB and a 4MB version of the HPV card. The actual card comes with half that capacity soldered down and is expandable to the maximum with VRAM SIMMs. Oh, and there was a Power Computing version of the 4 MB version of the card, which shipped in the Power 80/100/120. The PCC version has a Mac (DB15) and a VGA (HD15) video connector on its back plane and a little switch on the card to choose which one you want to use. So, if you see what looks like an HPV card, but it has a VGA connector on it, that's probably what you're looking at.

For affordable performance and a card it won't require a search party to find, the HPV card is the way to go.

In other not-so-news...

The 6100 can indeed use a pair of 128 MB SIMMs for 264 MB (2 X 128 + 8 ) of total RAM. This has been confirmed several times.

Zulko21, your reasoning is good regarding maximum SIMM capacity, however, you lack a crucial piece of information. 64 MB is the maximum capacity for a single *bank* on a 72 pin SIMM, but 72 pin SIMMs can have up to four banks -- although I've never seen one with more than two.

A two banked 72 pin SIMM, with each bank at 64 MB gives a 128 MB SIMM.

This is accomplished electrically by using the four RAS lines on the SIMM independently. The logic board must know to only activate two of the RAS lines at a time, and the SIMM must have the RAS lines wired independently to the banks.

Every 32 MB SIMM you've ever seen was probably a two bank 72-pin SIMM, built out of sixteen 4M X 4 parts.

There is a report on http://www.kan.org/6100 of one fellow using a pair of 256 MB SIMMs, but I'm certain this is impossible in the 6100. The reason I am confident of this is that the RAS lines in the SIMM sockets in the 6100 are wired together in pairs. So it isn't possible to independently control all four RAS lines in the 6100. They can only be activated in pairs. So two banks is the maximum.

Unfortunately, the 6100 seems to have its RAS lines wired together exactly the opposite of the way that the HP/IBM/Samsung D4893 is configured:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KMM53632000BK-6-128MB-32x36-60NS-FPM-SIMM-/110677960034?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c4eba562

although this module does work in the Q605/LC/P475/476.

There are some resistors on the module, which *might* be used to tie the RAS lines so it is conceivable that simply moving a few resistors would make this module compatible with the 6100, but I quit experimenting before I got that far.

The D4290, 64MB module works just fine in the 6100.

[zuiko21]

OK, I stand corrected! Thanks for clarifying!

Now I understand why, from my large collection of 32 MiB EDO-SIMMs, only two of them are properly recognized by the LC475...

[Unknown_K]

One of my 7100's came with a G3 card, PDS video and a 9GB SCSI HD (68 pin to 50 pin adapter connected to the built in SCSI BUS) running OS 9.1. I have to say it was slow as hell even with max RAM, even with a fast HD the built in SCSI bus sucks and the G3 wasn't that great either (250mhz?).

Those early upgraded PPC machines are best with 7.6.1 or 8.1.

[Bunsen]

I plan on installing a DVD player

I note that you later amended that to DVD-RAM, but I just thought I'd mention in case: you won't be able to play DVD movies on a 6100, no matter how upgraded it is.

Buy a NuBus Riser Card for my Secondary Video Card*
*: This is a High Power Video Card by the way.

That's a PDS right angle adapter you want, not a Nubus adapter. They are two different parts; the HPV card will not work in the Nubus adapter.

The Sonnet G3 upgrades have a PDS socket for the HPV card, and take the place of the PDS riser. Get one of them; it's about as easy to find as the plain PDS riser and you get a G3 and cache thrown in for free. Cache is either 512k or 1MB - IMHO getting the larger cache is more important than the CPU speed. NB: with a G3 card installed you can't use (and don't need) the motherboard cache.

Oh look, brand new with warranty 400MHz/1MB for $30

[Dimitris1980]

I have a mac performa 6116 with sonnet nubus g3 at 500 mhz installed and i use Mac Os 7.6.1. It is really fast. I have also 136 mb of ram.

[Theretrogamingroom]

Thanks for the advise everyone!

@trag: 264MB? I know what I'm getting!

@Bunsen:

I note that you later amended that to DVD-RAM, but I just thought I'd mention in case: you won't be able to play DVD movies on a 6100, no matter how upgraded it is.

Do you know why this is?

That's a PDS right angle adapter you want, not a Nubus adapter. They are two different parts; the HPV card will not work in the Nubus adapter.

Oh, thanks for the heads up! Any idea if I could do anything with the NuBus Slot?

The Sonnet G3 upgrades have a PDS socket for the HPV card, and take the place of the PDS riser. Get one of them; it's about as easy to find as the plain PDS riser and you get a G3 and cache thrown in for free. Cache is either 512k or 1MB - IMHO getting the larger cache is more important than the CPU speed. NB: with a G3 card installed you can't use (and don't need) the motherboard cache.

Oh look, brand new with warranty 400MHz/1MB for $30

Looks good

[trag]

@trag: 264MB? I know what I'm getting!

Note, that I wrote that I couldn't get a pair of that particular 128 MB SIMM to work with the 6100. It might work if those resistors tie the RAS lines on the SIMM, and if one rearranged them to correspond to how the 6100 ties the RAS lines together. But I haven't confirmed that.

[ClassicHasClass]

Do you know why this is?

Insufficient bandwidth and CPU grunt. Pre-G4 machines usually needed some sort of decoder card to have reasonable frame rates, which was never available for any NuBus machine. A G3 is just not going to be able to decode the disc fast enough.

You *could* play VCDs on it though -- MPEG-1, and especially "low res" MPEG-1, is much easier to decode than MPEG-2.

[Theretrogamingroom]

@ClassicHasClass: So theoretically, if I was to install a G3 upgrade, the only problem would be a decoder card? Sounds like a hack/mod begging to be made!

[ClassicHasClass]

Er, yes. But NuBus doesn't really have that kind of bandwidth.